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Author Topic:   Eternal Life (thanks, but no thanks)
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 16 of 296 (497627)
02-05-2009 6:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Modulous
02-04-2009 9:33 AM


Mod writes:
Do I get a choice? For reasons I will explain, the concept of eternal life whichever way it is dressed up fills me with either horror or non-caring. If I had a choice I would not accept this offer. Can I not simply request to be sent into the dark absence of oblivion rather than suffering permanent consciousness? It seems highly immoral to force me to do the thing which I would loathe to do.
You're familiar enough with the options open to you being eternal life or eternal death (biblical death involving ongoing existance - not annihilation)? The way in which you arrive at one or other of these destinations involves your will and it's expression. Essentially it boils down to a choice and they are but twofold.
You can carry on as you are currently doing, deciding how it is you want to direct your life, deciding for yourself what you consider good and evil to be and living accordingly or no as you see fit, deciding for yourself what lifes meaning is, deciding for yourself that there is no need to bow down to a creator (primarily because he doesn't meet your criteria for proving his existance to your satisfaction). In short, you can choose to continue to live an independent, godless life.
The alternative is to surrender completely to God. You give up your God-given right to go your own way if you so choose, you give up your right to choose which direction and which morality and which purpose - in order that his direction, his morality and his purpose for you rule. We'll leave aside the fact that after such surrender you will sin (rebel) again and we'll leave aside the precise mechanics of how it is you chose to surrender to God (you can't chose for something when you have no sense of it being available to chose)
We can summarise your choice thus:
quote:
You chose to maintain and sustain independance from God in which case you've chosen Hell and will spend eternity separated from the love of God
You surrender your will completely to God in which case you've effeectively chosen heaven.
We can see that there is no choice open to you regarding the nature of a non-Hell existance. In order to attain a non-Hell existance you'll have already given up your right to choose outside Gods will for you - so won't consider it immoral or unfair that you can't choose the nature of your eternal life existance. You choose not to be able to choose in other words - it'd be unreasonable of you to be whinging about it after the fact. Be a man - stick with the consequences of your decision
-
In many versions of immortality my personality remains the same for all eternity. What horror! My goals remain the same? Does that mean they are never fulfilled? Or does it mean I never get any new goals? Do I learn anything? If I do learn, gain new goals and so on and so forth - then I surely am growing. The dilemma is this:
In many versions? That strikes me as a bit strange. Whilst the Bible is replete with information giving us insight into the environment of Hell, it's pretty sketchy on the environment in heaven. There'll only be righteousness there so the ability to choose against God will no longer exist - but again that was the choice made that attained heaven for you in the first place so there should be no problem for you there. And we're told it will be blissful - even if no eye has seen and no mind has concieved of just how blissful that can be.
Where did you get this idea of stagnation?
-
If I do grow, then I change. This is good. I like changing - I am a different person now, then when I was six years old and I am different from when I was eighteen.
This post of yours is an excellent example of the kind of independent and irrational thinking that underlies your choice against God (as it currently stands). God says eternal life will be far better than here but that's not good enough for you. You have to speculate your way to supposing it such that God stick it. But this God was the same one who assembled a time/space existance whose attributes you point to as being preferable to anything you imagine an eternal life has to offer. If time/space a subset created for the purpose of allowing created beings to decide upon their eternal destination why would you suppose it "greater" than the destination itself? Would it not be more likely that Heaven will offer far better than the best on earth and Hell far worse that the worst on earth?
-
So God, can you take your offer of eternal life and stick it somewhere dark and unconscious? Either that or explain to me why I'm wrong.
Your wrong (better said: irrational) because you:
a) don't trust God to do as he says (when you rely on this same God to enable you to draw your next breath)
b)Require that God meet your requirements (explain himself in this instance) before bowing to him. Clearly the one has to give way before the other occur. That's a matter of your choice however.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Modulous, posted 02-04-2009 9:33 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Modulous, posted 02-05-2009 7:31 AM iano has replied
 Message 95 by Jaderis, posted 02-10-2009 5:59 AM iano has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 17 of 296 (497628)
02-05-2009 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by ICANT
02-05-2009 1:45 AM


The theocratic dictatorship of heaven
Hi ICANT,
I've heard various accounts of what heaven or paradise might be like from a variety of religions. What you describe certainly seems to satisfy or please you, but I can't help but feel that the dilemma I outlined remains unaddressed.
You seem to describe an eternal life with no challenges and no learning. I hope you enjoy that should it happen. As I described in the OP, that sounds like a perfect horror and in an effort to avoid that horror, God gives us hollow and pointless gratification.
I hope that you were not inspired by God in answer to my letter and that you are simply confused or wrong.
Mod

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by ICANT, posted 02-05-2009 1:45 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by ICANT, posted 02-05-2009 9:52 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 18 of 296 (497630)
02-05-2009 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by iano
02-05-2009 6:39 AM


Kiss my ring
Be a man - stick with the consequences of your decision
Assuming the universe is as you describe it, if I had been given a choice, knowing fully the universe I would be brought into, I would have asked to be uncreated/not created/not born. Unfortunately I was not given this choice, so I fail to see why I should be forced to stick with the consequences of a decision that was made for me rather than by me.
In many versions? That strikes me as a bit strange. Whilst the Bible is replete with information giving us insight into the environment of Hell, it's pretty sketchy on the environment in heaven
Which is one reason why there are many versions. There are others: like the fact that the Holy Bible is not the only collection of texts that describe an eternal afterlife.
Where did you get this idea of stagnation?
From one of the versions described to me, as I said. There are others in which there is no stagnation, but growth. Both of them are undesirable. Do you see a way out of this dilemma?
God says eternal life will be far better than here but that's not good enough for you.
That's why I am asking God, or one of his inspired followers, to explain how an eternal life can be better than a temporal one. "It will be" certainly isn't a good enough answer for me.
Your wrong (better said: irrational) because you:
don't trust God to do as he says (when you rely on this same God to enable you to draw your next breath)
That certainly would be irrational. However, I do not rely on God to enable me to do these things. I rely on my lungs to draw my next breath, knowing that there will be at least one time (and probably many) when that does not transpire.
I have assumed that God will give me eternal life, as per the OP. I am asking him, or an inspired agent of his, to explain why eternal life is something to be desired. I can only assume you are not one of these inspired agents since you did not do this, you just reiterated the promise of eternal life and that it would be awesome or terrible.
Require that God meet your requirements (explain himself in this instance) before bowing to him. Clearly the one has to give way before the other occur. That's a matter of your choice however.
If God is such a baby/spoiled monarch/ruthless dictator that he demands I bow before him, before he answers my questions with regards to why he should be bowed to, I'm signing up with the resistance. An eternity being gratified pointlessly by such a petulant arsehole sounds horrific.
But thanks for trying, I'm assuming you don't see a way out of the dilemma any more than I do, but have simply decided to ignore it because you trust that the architect behind it has got some kind of magic solution to it that does not require logic (ie., God has an irrational solution). If you were inspired by God to say those things - at least I know that he operates in a "don't ask, just kowtow to ME" kind of way.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by iano, posted 02-05-2009 6:39 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by iano, posted 02-05-2009 8:02 AM Modulous has replied
 Message 40 by Buzsaw, posted 02-05-2009 11:25 PM Modulous has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 19 of 296 (497631)
02-05-2009 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Modulous
02-04-2009 4:16 PM


Re: Just a thought
Modulous writes:
By whose definition of beneficial? My current definition, or a future definition? I'm sure what I would regard as beneficial growth will be different in five hundred years than it is now - at least I'd hope so: that's kind of the dilemma.
Understood.
Then, to be honest, I'm not interested in that kind of infinite life. I would want to be able to look back on myself aged twenty eight and think of myself as an entirely different person with different goals, beliefs, values, agendas, personality. But in so doing, I am stating that I want to rid my current personhood of its immortality.
Nothing wrong with that. Personal opinions vary greatly. I certainly can understand that you, as an individual, may very well not see anything worth being around for eternity with.
Which is why I offered up my "best possible choice" of being able to live as long as one wished. Once the boredom, or horror sets in too much, then you can simply choose to cease existing. I do not claim that such a proposition is available from the Christian God, or any god, or even this reality. I'm just saying that's what I think the nicest thing would be.
When I originally read your OP, I thought you were attempting to speak in a more objective sense. Saying something along the lines that everyone must feel this same way about eternity that you do. But, if you're not saying such a thing (which this last message of yours seems to imply), then I have no contention. And I completely agree that your personal opinions should be of great importance (the most important, even?) when deciding your eternal fate, if such a fate is supposed to be considered "good." Otherwise, it's more of a punishment then a heaven, no matter how "generally good" the sprinkles on top appear to popular opinion.
The kind of life of existing largely as I am now, having fun or keeping myself amused/happy whatever seem to me to fall under the 'hollow and pointless gratification' category.
Understood, I'm just saying that such a thing isn't necessarily the same for everyone. I'm quite sure that certain people do exist that would be thrilled by the idea of eternally keeping themselves amused/happy with an infinite number of varying ways.
Personally, I'm not sure if I'm even one, but I certainly would enjoy the chance to find out

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Modulous, posted 02-04-2009 4:16 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Modulous, posted 02-05-2009 7:58 AM Stile has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 20 of 296 (497632)
02-05-2009 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Stile
02-05-2009 7:51 AM


Re: Just a thought
Which is why I offered up my "best possible choice" of being able to live as long as one wished.
That does seem like a good compromise, though I imagine by that time I would be a radically different person thus falling foul of one of the dilemma's prongs. Another possible solution is reincarnation. Looking back to Bluejay's 'perspective' criteria, even if (or perhaps especially because) we lose all of our memories each time, an eternity of being reborn wouldn't be bad at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Stile, posted 02-05-2009 7:51 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Stile, posted 02-05-2009 9:41 AM Modulous has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 21 of 296 (497633)
02-05-2009 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Modulous
02-05-2009 7:31 AM


Re: Kiss my ring
Assuming the universe is as you describe it, if I had been given a choice, knowing fully the universe I would be brought into, I would have asked to be uncreated/not created/not born. Unfortunately I was not given this choice, so I fail to see why I should be forced to stick with the consequences of a decision that was made for me rather than by me.
I'm not quite sure how you would be given a choice not to exist without being made exist in order to be given the choice not to exist...
But anyway..
It's true that you weren't given a choice about the choice facing you. You'll be forced to stick with the consequences of either one because God is sovereign and has decided that be the case. The only court of appeal I can envisage you applying to is the court which denies God's sovereign right to have it anyway he likes. I'm not sure from whence they'd derive authority to pronounce judgement on God though - nevermind deriving the ability to enforce it.
-
Which is one reason why there are many versions. There are others: like the fact that the Holy Bible is not the only collection of texts that describe an eternal afterlife.
Granted, but if dealing with the biblical God you've little reason to be suppose the worst as you do in your OP. The biblical information is simply to sketchy to draw much by way of such conclusion.
-
That's why I am asking God, or one of his inspired followers, to explain how an eternal life can be better than a temporal one. "It will be" certainly isn't a good enough answer for me
That's Gods answer to you. Either he is to believed or not. If not then no answer should convince you - given that God could be telling you lies.
-
[qs]That certainly would be irrational. However, I do not rely on God to enable me to do these things. I rely on my lungs to draw my next breath, knowing that there will be at least one time (and probably many) when that does not transpire.[/quote]
I was assuming you believed in God for the sake of argument. My mistake.
-
I have assumed that God will give me eternal life, as per the OP. I am asking him, or an inspired agent of his, to explain why eternal life is something to be desired. I can only assume you are not one of these inspired agents since you did not do this, you just reiterated the promise of eternal life and that it would be awesome or terrible.
You don't think it'd be interesting to meet God?
-
If God is such a baby/spoiled monarch/ruthless dictator that he demands I bow before him, before he answers my questions with regards to why he should be bowed to, I'm signing up with the resistance. An eternity being gratified pointlessly by such a petulant arsehole sounds horrific.
He doesn't demand that you bow before him - awestruck exposure to him and his majesty will cause you to do that all by yourself - whenever it is you meet him.
God's work in salvation is to convince you to bow before him - to give you a reason whereby your knees willingly hit the deck. But it's a work that can be thwarted by your unwillingness to be brought to that point.
-
But thanks for trying, I'm assuming you don't see a way out of the dilemma any more than I do, but have simply decided to ignore it because you trust that the architect behind it has got some kind of magic solution to it that does not require logic (ie., God has an irrational solution).
If the solution was logical I'd still have to trust God that eternal life won't turn out to be other than logical. It's tortoises all the way down Mod. At at the base of it all is trust in God.
Your posting is an exercise in demanding that God conform to your will and your demands. If you consider that just and right then you'll grant that God is as entitled to demand that you conform to his will and demands. As it happens, he will ensure that you conform- be it willingly on your part or not.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Modulous, posted 02-05-2009 7:31 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Modulous, posted 02-05-2009 9:05 AM iano has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 22 of 296 (497635)
02-05-2009 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by iano
02-05-2009 8:02 AM


Re: Kiss my ring
I'm not quite sure how you would be given a choice not to exist without being made exist in order to be given the choice not to exist...
Precisely my point - it's nonsense, as is suggesting that I be a man and suffer the consequences of my decision even though I did not make any decision. I am not talking about hell or heaven, I'm talking about having eternal life - it is to that this topic is about and according to you I have no choice in that matter. It would be like telling someone to accept the consequences of their decision over which parents they would have).
You'll be forced to stick with the consequences of either one because God is sovereign and has decided that be the case.
I agree, in your theology I am forced into eternal life with no choice in that matter. Can you explain why eternal life is something to be desired, though?
Granted, but if dealing with the biblical God you've little reason to be suppose the worst as you do in your OP.
Assume the worst? I proposed a dichotomy and explain why that dichotomy presents a dilemma. I am not assuming the worst at all, I am presenting two mutually exclusive possibilities for how eternal life works, neither of which I want.
I am asking God, or one of his followers to explain how it is a false dichotomy - how to escape the dilemma.
That's Gods answer to you. Either he is to believed or not.
Then either God doesn't understand the question, or he is an evasive git. Assuming he does understand and he isn't evasive, then you don't understand his answer when you are relaying it to me, or God is not inspiring your answers. I seem to be getting more sensical answers from the Mormon God so far.
I was assuming you believed in God for the sake of argument. My mistake.
I am. I don't see how believing that God exists, or in more general terms that eternal life is possible, must therefore mean that I rely upon that God to perform my bodily functions.
You don't think it'd be interesting to meet God?
What makes you ask that? It would probably be interesting to meet God.
Your posting is an exercise in demanding that God conform to your will and your demands.
How so? I'm just asking God or one of his inspired agents to explain to me, in a loving fashion I presume, why my dilemma is not a dilemma. How is asking that question demanding God conform to my will and my demands? If he chooses not to answer that's his choice, I rather suspect he won't answer.
Are you suggesting that when one asks for guidance one is demanding God conforms to one's will and demands?
If you consider that just and right then you'll grant that God is as entitled to demand that you conform to his will and demands. As it happens, he will ensure that you conform- be it willingly on your part or not.
Yes that God you describe, the terrible cosmic dictator. That's the one I'm rebelling against - whatever the consequences. Sounds like Hitler in the sky, a veritable Kim Jong-il. That's another topic though. I think I have your answer:
Eternal life will be awesome (or terrible), because He says so. If you don't believe Him it'll be terrible, if you do, it'll be awesome. God does not have to answer my puny piddling mortal questions about whether or not I want it - I have no choice so it doesn't matter.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by iano, posted 02-05-2009 8:02 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by iano, posted 02-05-2009 11:21 AM Modulous has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 23 of 296 (497639)
02-05-2009 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Modulous
02-05-2009 7:58 AM


Re: Just a thought
Modulous writes:
Stile writes:
Which is why I offered up my "best possible choice" of being able to live as long as one wished.
That does seem like a good compromise, though I imagine by that time I would be a radically different person thus falling foul of one of the dilemma's prongs.
I see what you're saying now.
It is quite possible that the 28-year-old Modulous may want to cease the existence of the 500-year-old Modulous by 28-year-old standards, if it were possible for 28-year-old Modulous to see what 500-year-old Modulous had become. However, the 500-year-old Modulous (obviously using 500-year-old standards) may not want to cease his existence at that time.
In which case... we have the dilemma you're talking about.
It all seems to rest on "what if I become significantly different from what I am now?" And I suppose the only answer to that is the other side of the coin: "what if you do not?"
I suppose I'm just trying to say that it is not a case of only extremes. It is possible to change "enough to avoid the horrific feelings of monotony" for eternity and yet not change so much as to be "significantly different from what I am now."
Or, at the least, I don't see what would prevent such a scenario from being a possibility. In which case avoiding the dilemma would be a possibility. Although I do not know how one could monitor such a development in order to make sure you stay on the straight and narrow.
Another possible solution is reincarnation. Looking back to Bluejay's 'perspective' criteria, even if (or perhaps especially because) we lose all of our memories each time, an eternity of being reborn wouldn't be bad at all.
I would suggest that such an eternity of reincarnation would be similar to what cavediver describes as the tragedy of un-remembered experiences in a forced-upon you sense. In which case, I would think that such a situation would eventually fall into your "hollow and pointless gratification" compartment. Unless, somehow, there is some sort of external "brain-bank" that saves the memories of each life after they are completed? This would allow you to live each life individually, with no past memories... but once you "die", you could view the differences from life-to-life until you were ready (forced?) to reincarnate again?
Edited by Stile, : Thinking outside the quote-box

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Modulous, posted 02-05-2009 7:58 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Modulous, posted 02-05-2009 9:57 AM Stile has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 24 of 296 (497640)
02-05-2009 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Stile
02-05-2009 9:41 AM


non-consensual immortality
I suppose I'm just trying to say that it is not a case of only extremes. It is possible to change "enough to avoid the horrific feelings of monotony" for eternity and yet not change so much as to be "significantly different from what I am now."
Or, at the least, I don't see what would prevent such a scenario from being a possibility.
Yes - it's as good an escape from the dilemma as can be reasonably formulated, I think. That said, I'm not entirely convinced by it. The ideas that I can grow and change and learn for eternity, but not change so much so as to be significantly different do seem to intuitively clash - that doesn't mean they definitely do.
If that is what is offered to me (along with the option to self-terminate), I might be more tempted than I otherwise would be. I am just at a loss as to how it might work. Eternity, I suppose, can do that to our imagination.
I would suggest that such an eternity of reincarnation would be similar to what cavediver describes as the tragedy of un-remembered experiences in a forced-upon you sense.
I concur.
Unless, somehow, there is some sort of external "brain-bank" that saves the memories of each life after they are completed? This would allow you to live each life individually, with no past memories... but once you "die", you could view the differences from life-to-life until you were ready (forced?) to reincarnate again?
Yeah - the permanent record that can be viewed is something I have considered before - but if we are our memories, that eternal being will certainly be very different from me so I'd never really get to enjoy the comparison, would I?
One thing stands out: Inspection of promises of eternal life reveal something perhaps less than fantastic as they might seem to us on the face of them. I don't want to die, but the alternative seems worse. That is a dilemma that is forced upon us.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Stile, posted 02-05-2009 9:41 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Stile, posted 02-05-2009 10:23 AM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 25 of 296 (497643)
02-05-2009 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Modulous
02-05-2009 9:57 AM


How much is too much
Modulous writes:
If that is what is offered to me (along with the option to self-terminate), I might be more tempted than I otherwise would be. I am just at a loss as to how it might work. Eternity, I suppose, can do that to our imagination.
I must admit that I'm also at a loss to demonstrate how such a scenario could be implemented, even if possible. That is what would definitely scare me off. It may certainly be possible for it to happen, but if we can't know that it's happening, it's quite possible to fall back into the dilemma. And I agree that the dilemma is something to be avoided. Greed combined with even beneficial-hope can be a very powerful, sneaky enemy, especially given an eternity to work upon someone.
If it could be shown that monitoring the possibility is actually impossible in itself, that would render the dilemma back into full-force. Only adding in a "glorious golden apple above an uncrossable, bottomless pit of despair" useless temptation.
That is, if the possibility exists, but is impossible to obtain... it is equally useless (practically speaking) as non-existing in the first place.
And going one step further "not knowing how to obtain it" is, in practice, just as good as "impossible to obtain." In which case, without formulating a way to monitor and identify when one is "changing significantly" we're left with the dilemma as the only practical result that we can expect.
Yeah - the permanent record that can be viewed is something I have considered before - but if we are our memories, that eternal being will certainly be very different from me so I'd never really get to enjoy the comparison, would I?
Not during a reincaration-episode, no. And, while not in a reincarnation-episode... is there any lasting satisfaction in having the ability to view all such episodes? And if there is... why would someone need to begin such a reincarnation episode, then? ...that sounds like it's own dilemma in an infinite-regression sort of way.
One thing stands out: Inspection of promises of eternal life reveal something perhaps less than fantastic as they might to us on the face of them. I don't want to die, but the alternative seems worse. That is a dilemma that is forced upon us.
Stupid forcing. All "oh... this is the way things are..." I bet it's feeling pretty damn smug right about now.
If there is an actual intelligent being responsible for such things, they certainly should be prepared for a punch in the nose before any "understanding" gets explained (if such understanding even exists, anyway).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Modulous, posted 02-05-2009 9:57 AM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 26 of 296 (497652)
02-05-2009 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Modulous
02-05-2009 9:05 AM


Re: Kiss my ring
Precisely my point - it's nonsense, as is suggesting that I be a man and suffer the consequences of my decision even though I did not make any decision.
But you did make a decision - or will have. That you had no choice but to chose one way or the other doesn't absolve you from the consequences of choosing the way you choose.
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I'm talking about having eternal life - it is to that this topic is about and according to you I have no choice in that matter. It would be like telling someone to accept the consequences of their decision over which parents they would have).
The choice you have in the matter is to sign up for Gods will to reign in your life - which includes his will regarding the flavour of eternal life. If you don't want to sign up in that direction then sign in the other.
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I agree, in your theology I am forced into eternal life with no choice in that matter. Can you explain why eternal life is something to be desired, though?
As pointed out, you are not forced into eternal life - you can choose eternal death if you want. The force applied extends only to your having to choose one or the other.
As for a reason to chose it? Avoiding eternal death strikes me as one good reason - by all accounts it's a terrible existance. Getting to meet someone as fascinating as God - on terms that involve his loving you beyond compare would be another very good reason to chose life.
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Assume the worst? I proposed a dichotomy and explain why that dichotomy presents a dilemma. I am not assuming the worst at all, I am presenting two mutually exclusive possibilities for how eternal life works, neither of which I want.
You're assuming the worst in the sense that your supposing that these possibilities - neither of which you like - are the only possibilities.
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Then either God doesn't understand the question, or he is an evasive git. Assuming he does understand and he isn't evasive, then you don't understand his answer when you are relaying it to me, or God is not inspiring your answers. I seem to be getting more sensical answers from the Mormon God so far.
Gods answer requires that you believe him and trust him. Whatever his answer you'll still have to believe him that he speaks the truth. So what benefit is there in gaining more insight into how great eternal life would be? If he says "it will be great - trust me" then you're no further along than if he gave you 2 minutes exposure by way of foretaste.
-
I am. I don't see how believing that God exists, or in more general terms that eternal life is possible, must therefore mean that I rely upon that God to perform my bodily functions.
Who do you suppose to be holding all creation together if not God?
-
What makes you ask that? It would probably be interesting to meet God.
It would be only probably interesting to meet God?
To meet a person capable of making a being such as you - only probably interesting to meet. I'm curious Mod - is there anyone else who you envisage would be more interesting to meet than God.
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How so? I'm just asking God or one of his inspired agents to explain to me, in a loving fashion I presume, why my dilemma is not a dilemma. How is asking that question demanding God conform to my will and my demands? If he chooses not to answer that's his choice, I rather suspect he won't answer.
Er.. that wasn't what I was picking up. This is more like it:
"Unless, you, God (or your inspired agents) meet my demand and explain what eternity is going to be like - so as to offset concerns I have about the couple of options that I've managed to dream up - then you can stick your eternal life where the sun doesn't shine and annihilate me".
The only place the sun won't be shining is in Hell. Is that where you want God to stick your eternal life?
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Eternal life will be awesome (or terrible), because He says so.
Not quite. It is as he describes it and there is no profit in enquiring further (based on turtles all the way down). But the reason why it is as it is, is because we are exposed to one or other attribute of him: his love and majesty and glory and kindness.
Or we are exposed to his wrath.
-
If you don't believe Him it'll be terrible, if you do, it'll be awesome. God does not have to answer my puny piddling mortal questions about whether or not I want it - I have no choice so it doesn't matter.
If you believe him you'll be exposed to him as above. If you don't believe him you'll be exposed to him as above.
He doesn't have to answer your questions - not just because you're puny - but because all that you need for your salvation (or no) has been provided according to the mechanism God has designed for the purpose. That mechanism enables your choice, takes note of your choice and executes your choice. That mechanism is suitable for people born in all ages, of all intelligences, of all educations etc.
There is no need for God to supply a mechanism of your cobbled together design when the one he has provided for you and everyone else will fulfill it's task to perfection. Everyone spending an eternity in a place of their own hearts desire and that place exceeding the expectations of their owns hearts desire.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Modulous, posted 02-05-2009 9:05 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Modulous, posted 02-05-2009 11:51 AM iano has replied
 Message 31 by Straggler, posted 02-05-2009 5:07 PM iano has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 27 of 296 (497654)
02-05-2009 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Modulous
02-04-2009 9:33 AM


Do I get a choice?
Yes, you get a choice.
John 3:16-18 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
Do I grow?
Yes, those who enter into the eternal life God gives grow.
2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Modulous, posted 02-04-2009 9:33 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Modulous, posted 02-05-2009 11:53 AM John 10:10 has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 28 of 296 (497658)
02-05-2009 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by iano
02-05-2009 11:21 AM


Shutup and Kiss my ring, already
But you did make a decision - or will have. That you had no choice but to chose one way or the other doesn't absolve you from the consequences of choosing the way you choose.
What? Are you saying I do get to decide whether I will live for eternity? I thought your position, as you later describe it is that I only get to choose the "flavour of eternal life". Which is it?
As pointed out, you are not forced into eternal life - you can choose eternal death if you want. The force applied extends only to your having to choose one or the other.
As for a reason to chose it? Avoiding eternal death strikes me as one good reason - by all accounts it's a terrible existance
Very confusing. What does 'eternal death' mean? The way I understand it, it cannot be a terrible existence since it would mean not existing.
Getting to meet someone as fascinating as God - on terms that involve his loving you beyond compare would be another very good reason to chose life.
If living for eternity is the price I have to pay to meet God, I'll skip it. As interesting as it might be, it doesn't overcome the dilemma I set out.
You're assuming the worst in the sense that your supposing that these possibilities - neither of which you like - are the only possibilities.
I'm not assuming any such thing - I am stating that I see no other possibilities and asking if anyone has any answers. Evidently between you and God, you can't think of any or won't tell me. Fine.
God answer requires that you believe him and trust him. Whatever his answer you'll still have to believe him that he speaks the truth. So what benefit is there in gaining more insight into how great eternal life would be? If he says "it will be great - trust me" then you're no further along than if he gave you 2 minutes exposure by way of foretaste.
That's precisely what I said earlier. Having someone just tell me it will be great doesn't cut the mustard for having me desire it. If that is as good an answer as your God inspires you to give, I still do not desire to live forever (thanks, but no thanks).
I was hoping that God could explain, as well as or better than a mortal philosopher, why my dilemma isn't one. "Trust me, it isn't" is to be frank, a pathetic answer. I appreciate its the best that your God has - so my answer to your God remains "Thanks, but no thanks."
Who do you suppose to be holding all creation together if not God?
Forces that God put in place when he created it. I don't hold together my model airplane - I used glue to do that.
It would be probably interesting to meet God?
To meet a person capable of making a being such as you - only probably interesting to meet. I'm curious Mod - is there anyone else who you envisage would be more interesting to meet than God.
Since I've not met him, I don't know if it would be interesting. I'm sure the experience would be novel - but would it hold my interest? Probably - but them God might be dreadfully boring for all I know.
Er.. that wasn't what I was picking up.
Well, consider yourself tutored.
Not quite. It is as he describes it and there is no profit in enquiring further (based on turtles all the way down).
Right - enquiry is profitless to your deity. I get that.
Still, it would be nice if I could spend my mortal life looking forward to eternity rather than dreading it. Your God doesn't do that kind of thing, it's a case of "Shutup and follow my rules that I won't fully explain for reasons that I won't explain so that you will be rewarded in ways I won't explain."
He doesn't have to answer your questions because all that you need for your salvation (or no) has been provided according to the mechanism God has designed for the purpose.
Well of course he doesn't. I don't have to answer your questions, and Hitler didn't have to answer Chamberlain's questions. If your God's answer is just 'shutup and trust me' then our discussion is over. I remain where I was at the start, not looking forward to eternal life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by iano, posted 02-05-2009 11:21 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by iano, posted 02-06-2009 6:56 AM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 29 of 296 (497660)
02-05-2009 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by John 10:10
02-05-2009 11:29 AM


Yes, you get a choice.
Fantastic.
Yes, those who enter into the eternal life God gives grow.
Then as per the OP - thanks, but no thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by John 10:10, posted 02-05-2009 11:29 AM John 10:10 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by NosyNed, posted 02-05-2009 1:59 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 30 of 296 (497677)
02-05-2009 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Modulous
02-05-2009 11:53 AM


what eternity means
You've brought up some interesting conundrums Mod. I'd always had this vaguely thought out picture of heaven (as more vaguely suggested by some Christians) as a place of unending boredom. You've made it a bit more interesting a question than that.
I think that Christians don't get what "eternity" means.
For one thing, anything you do in heaven, any conversation you have, anything at all, you will end up having to do again. Then again. After the 100,000 time it might be a bit boring, no?
I think Christians have a picture more like a constant state of drugged out stupor so they don't mind this. But as, we see here, they don't really have any picture of what heaven will be like.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Modulous, posted 02-05-2009 11:53 AM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by John 10:10, posted 02-05-2009 5:22 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
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