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Author Topic:   I Am Not An Atheist!
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 76 of 382 (497557)
02-04-2009 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by onifre
02-04-2009 3:32 PM


Re: Topic
Hi oni,
onifre writes:
You honestly believe this...?
Sure I do.
onifre writes:
You think the devil is deceiving people be manipulating science, picking certain theories and channeling through specific scientist that bring the theories to the mainstream...?
All scientist? NO
Science is a great and necessary work that God gave man the knowledge and ability to do.
But the devil will use anything and everything to reach his goal. He cares nothing about anything but his selfish desires. He will deceive anybody that will let him. He will then use them for his advantage.
The same goes for the preachers and churches mentioned below.
I also believe that the devil is deceiving people by manipulating religion, picking certain doctrines and channeling false teachings through different false preachers and churches.
It has nothing to do with atheist, agnostic or religious.
It has to do with a war between good and evil.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by onifre, posted 02-04-2009 3:32 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by onifre, posted 02-04-2009 6:14 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 77 of 382 (497561)
02-04-2009 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Straggler
02-04-2009 4:35 PM


Re: Topic
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
I said that, based on your own statements, the devil seeks for us to deny the need for salvation.
According to you he attempts to do this through (amongst other things) theories like BB and evolution.
Therefore these theories support a position which denies a need for salvation.
Therefore those who advocate such theories have been deceived by the devil into advocating a position that denies the need for salvation.
Actually the proponents of the theories are proposing God does not exist and if He does we don't need him.
What happened to all the other things I said about the devil is trying to accomplish his goal.
ICANT writes:
The devil does not care if you believe in God.
The devil does not care if you are religious in fact he encourages it.
The devil does not care if you join a church and get involved in all the church activities.
But there are two things the devil does not want you to do.
1) Read a good Bible. (because faith cometh by hearing the word).
2) He does not want man to see his need of salvation to the point he puts the eternal destiny of his spirit in Gods hands.
The devil will do everything in his power to keep this from happening and if he fails he will spend the rest of that person's life trying to convince them not to serve the Lord as master but to serve him.
You sum up using part of my statement and then ask the following question.
Straggler writes:
Can you see why claiming something is denying the need for salvation, and thus anti-Christian, but not atheistic is a pretty subtle distinction in a predominantly Christian culture?
Why is denying the need for salvation anti-Christian?
Why is the a subtle distinction in a predominantly Christian culture?
Especially when it is not a predominantly Christian culture.
It is a predominantly religious culture.
I think you need to start a thread where we can continue this conversation without being so far off topic.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Straggler, posted 02-04-2009 4:35 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Straggler, posted 02-04-2009 5:44 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 78 of 382 (497570)
02-04-2009 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by ICANT
02-04-2009 5:10 PM


Back to the OP
Actually the proponents of the theories are proposing God does not exist and if He does we don't need him.
Which takes us all the way back to where we started before you brought the devil or salvation into the equation back in Message 69
Can you see why your claim that the theories in question suggest that "God does not exist and if He does we don't need him" whilst also claiming that they are not atheistic is a pretty subtle distinction?
Why is denying the need for salvation anti-Christian?
Is it possible to be a Christian and not seek salvation through Jesus Christ? I thought that was kinda the point of the whole deal?
Why is the a subtle distinction in a predominantly Christian culture?
In a predominantly Christian culture denying the Christian God without advocating a different God is obviously going to be viewed as atheism.
I think you need to start a thread where we can continue this conversation without being so far off topic.
Regardimg these last few comments you may well be right.
Actually the proponents of the theories are proposing God does not exist and if He does we don't need him.
But your comment here is very much on topic.
Why do creationists often seem to confuse evolutionists and atheists?
Well according to you it is because the theory of evolution is a work of deceit by the devil designed to convince us that "God does not exist and if He does we don't need him"
This very much answers Percy's OP. It seems that in terms of opinion, even if not action, you are exactly the sort of creationist he is talking about.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by ICANT, posted 02-04-2009 5:10 PM ICANT has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 79 of 382 (497578)
02-04-2009 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by ICANT
02-04-2009 4:41 PM


Re: Topic
Hi ICANT,
Sure I do.
Thats sad.
ICANT writes:
onifre writes:
You think the devil is deceiving people be manipulating science, picking certain theories and channeling through specific scientist that bring the theories to the mainstream...?
All scientist? NO
I didn't say all scientist,
onifre writes:
through specific scientist that bring the theories to the mainstream
Let be be more specific:
Do you believe the devil selects specific scientist to advance certain fields of science (i.e. Darwin with evolution)...?
Or does he wait till he sees a theory he can use then exploits it...?
I'm just wondering why the devil will wait till Darwin had a break through to then jump onboard the evolution deception train...?
Or am I confused, did the devil make Darwin see the evidence...?
Because honestly, it just seems like this is an after thought of yours because you feel there is a link between certain theories and the removal of God, so you equate it to the work of the devil. Who else could it be, right...?
However:
If Straggler would have asked you if people who believe that the Earth revolves around the Sun where God denying or being deceived by the devil, you would have said no. Yet 500 years ago people would have said yes, it is God denying and you are being deceived by the devil if you believe the Earth revolves around the Sun. In fact Galileo was convicted of heresy for just that.
So you seem to be using the same ignorant argument used to convict people 500 years ago. Funny, in another thread you wrote that "things change with time, there is no denying that", yet the reasoning of religious people when reviewing scientific evidence has stayed the same throughout time. As ignorant and pitiful as always.
Just as they did you now do the same. You feel that accepting these theories removes God from the equation and as such the devil is using these theories to deceive man. Yet, they, like you, were absolutely wrong. In fact, they have been wrong on every issue concerning the devil and his avenues of deception, this is just your new and improved 21st century argument.
500 years ago it was the Earth revolving around the Sun, today it's evolution and the BB, tomorrow it will be some other shitty argument that is borne of ignorance. And, there will be an ICANT in the future, as there is now, as there was 500 years ago, professing that the devil is using modern science to deceive mankind and lure us away from salvation. So, to fix it, you must believe in another invisible man that dwells in the unknown and trust in authors who lived thousands of years ago. And, in the future, as there is now, as there was 500 years ago, hopefully in greater numbers, will sit the rational people who understand science saying "What are you guys fucking crazy?".

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by ICANT, posted 02-04-2009 4:41 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Straggler, posted 02-04-2009 7:03 PM onifre has not replied
 Message 84 by ICANT, posted 02-04-2009 10:39 PM onifre has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 80 of 382 (497585)
02-04-2009 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by onifre
02-04-2009 6:14 PM


Re: Topic
If Straggler would have asked you if people who believe that ..............
Well I wish I had asked that now.
Good point. Thankyou for making it for me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by onifre, posted 02-04-2009 6:14 PM onifre has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 81 of 382 (497586)
02-04-2009 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
01-30-2009 10:02 AM


I take your point. The question shouldn't centre around how old you say the earth is. Or what you're not. It should centre around who you say Jesus Christ is.
So, who do you, Percy, say Jesus Christ is? Your Lord and saviour? Or an equivocation around same.
Your answer to me need not be your final answer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Percy, posted 01-30-2009 10:02 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by DrJones*, posted 02-04-2009 7:24 PM iano has not replied
 Message 83 by Percy, posted 02-04-2009 7:50 PM iano has not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 82 of 382 (497588)
02-04-2009 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by iano
02-04-2009 7:11 PM


The question shouldn't centre around how old you say the earth is. Or what you're not. It should centre around who you say Jesus Christ is.
Why would it center around that? Who Percy regards jesus to be has nothing to do with whether or not he is an atheist or an agnostic. Christians aren't the only non-athiests out there. The topic of the OP is: Why do creationists automatically classify their opponents as atheists?

soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by iano, posted 02-04-2009 7:11 PM iano has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 83 of 382 (497592)
02-04-2009 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by iano
02-04-2009 7:11 PM


iano writes:
So, who do you, Percy, say Jesus Christ is? Your Lord and saviour? Or an equivocation around same.
You responded to Message 1, so perhaps you hadn't read the rest of the thread? Anyway, later in the thread I make clear I'm a deist. Although I'm not a Christian and do not accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, I do believe in a higher purpose.
But this thread is about atheism, so why do you ask about a very specific religious belief? It wouldn't make sense to consider anyone who doesn't share your religious beliefs to be an atheist, so I can't see why you're asking.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by iano, posted 02-04-2009 7:11 PM iano has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 84 of 382 (497600)
02-04-2009 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by onifre
02-04-2009 6:14 PM


Re: Topic
Hi oni,
onifre writes:
Just as they did you now do the same. You feel that accepting these theories removes God from the equation and as such the devil is using these theories to deceive man.
Well no I don't think atheist, agnostic, or religious people as well as theories remove God from anything.
God exists.
The devil started out using a piece of beautiful fruit.
He has used the church to deceive more people than the BB or ToE.
But as far as the earth revolving around the sun the last time I checked it took the earth 365.26 days to make that revolution.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by onifre, posted 02-04-2009 6:14 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by anglagard, posted 02-05-2009 3:49 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 86 by Shield, posted 02-05-2009 4:07 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 87 by NosyNed, posted 02-05-2009 10:12 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 92 by caldron68, posted 02-05-2009 10:44 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 98 by onifre, posted 02-06-2009 11:28 AM ICANT has replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 85 of 382 (497617)
02-05-2009 3:49 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by ICANT
02-04-2009 10:39 PM


Posessed by the Devil
ICANT writes:
The devil started out using a piece of beautiful fruit.
He has used the church to deceive more people than the BB or ToE.
From this and previous posts you sure seem to claim to know any purported 'devil' quite well. After all you seem to claim to know, above and beyond most us mere mortals, exactly what this 'devil' wants from people, exactly which scientific theories are promoted by this 'devil,' and even who and under what circumstances anyone (yourself excepted, of course) is subject to the actions and will of your purported 'devil.'
For someone who claims an allegiance to Christianity, you sure have what seems to me quite the obsession.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by ICANT, posted 02-04-2009 10:39 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Shield
Member (Idle past 2862 days)
Posts: 482
Joined: 01-29-2008


Message 86 of 382 (497618)
02-05-2009 4:07 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by ICANT
02-04-2009 10:39 PM


Re: Topic
ICANT writes:
But as far as the earth revolving around the sun the last time I checked it took the earth 365.26 days to make that revolution.
Which has NOTHING to do with what Onifre asked you.
You could not have answered that question in a more silly way.
Why won't you answer his question?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by ICANT, posted 02-04-2009 10:39 PM ICANT has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 87 of 382 (497641)
02-05-2009 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by ICANT
02-04-2009 10:39 PM


devil's duties
He has used the church to deceive more people than the BB or ToE.
You suggest that the devil has many, many tricks up his sleeve to deceive people. It appears you are left with no way of knowing that he isn't deceiving you. Maybe he wrote the Bible even.
But as far as the earth revolving around the sun the last time I checked it took the earth 365.26 days to make that revolution.
That statement of yours is contracting the Bible, if the Devil didn't write it then maybe he is deceiving you (and a few others) into thinking it is true when it isn't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by ICANT, posted 02-04-2009 10:39 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 88 of 382 (497711)
02-05-2009 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
01-30-2009 10:02 AM


We Have an Answer Courtesy of ICANT
After a slightly circular and protracted discussion with ICANT it seems that we have an answer to the question implied in your OP.
Regarding scientific theories such as evolution and the Big Bang ICANT says:
ICANT writes:
I view them as the devils attempt to win his war with God.
From Message 71
Actually the proponents of the theories are proposing God does not exist and if He does we don't need him.
From Message 77
ICANT writes:
I do not believe those who accept the BB theory and ToE are brainwashed. I do believe they are deceived by the devil.
From Message 68
However he also says that such theories are not explicitly atheistic in his view:
ICANT writes:
I do not explicitly associate theories like BB and evolution with atheism?
There are many people who believe in God and the BB theory.
There are many people who believe in God and the ToE.
So I would be a fool to equate BB, and Toe with atheism.
From Message 68
So, according to ICANT, the theory of evolution is the work of the devil advocated by those who have been deceived by the devil and who are proposing that God is unnecessary and/or non-existent despite not actually being atheists.
If this is how other creationists think then I guess it explains the confusion between 'evolutionists' and atheists that you highlight in your OP?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Percy, posted 01-30-2009 10:02 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Buzsaw, posted 02-05-2009 6:18 PM Straggler has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 382 (497718)
02-05-2009 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Straggler
02-05-2009 5:40 PM


Re: We Have an Answer Courtesy of ICANT
Straggler writes:
So, according to ICANT, the theory of evolution is the work of the devil advocated by those who have been deceived by the devil and who are proposing that God is unnecessary and/or non-existent despite not actually being atheists.
For sure, Satan, arch enemy of God would promote and inspire anything which diminishes the glory, power and majestic supremacy of the creator/designer and manager of everything in the Universe as per the Biblical record.
The apostle Paul, in the letter to the Romans, (1:25) soundly condemns those who regard the creature more than the creator, and who have "changed the truth of God into a lie.".

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Straggler, posted 02-05-2009 5:40 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Straggler, posted 02-05-2009 6:27 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 90 of 382 (497722)
02-05-2009 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Buzsaw
02-05-2009 6:18 PM


Re: We Have an Answer Courtesy of ICANT
Straggler writes:
So, according to ICANT, the theory of evolution is the work of the devil advocated by those who have been deceived by the devil and who are proposing that God is unnecessary and/or non-existent despite not actually being atheists.
For sure, Satan, arch enemy of God would promote and inspire anything which diminishes the glory, power and majestic supremacy of the creator/designer and manager of everything in the Universe as per the Biblical record.
I know some theists (quite possibly some here at EvC) who consider the whole biblical literalist/creationsit movement to diminish "the glory, power and majestic supremacy" of God as they view Him to be.
Is the biblical literalist position the work of Satan too?
Go figure.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Buzsaw, posted 02-05-2009 6:18 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Buzsaw, posted 02-05-2009 7:29 PM Straggler has replied

  
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