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Author Topic:   Noah's Ark volume calculation
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1179 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 301 of 347 (497667)
02-05-2009 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by deerbreh
02-05-2009 11:00 AM


Re: Miracle or Bust
Also I would add that there is zero evidence that Noah's society was technologically advanced. And plenty of evidence it wasn't. Just read the specs for the ark. The ark would have been steel, not wood, for starters.

Great project for Mythbusters!


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan
This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by deerbreh, posted 02-05-2009 11:00 AM deerbreh has not yet responded

dronestar
Member (Idle past 417 days)
Posts: 1379
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 302 of 347 (497671)
02-05-2009 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by Granny Magda
02-04-2009 9:38 PM


perhaps prophet wasn't lion . . .
from OP
quote:
c) It must contain some form of separation between the animals, presumably so they wouldn't eat each other (i.e fences, cabins, etc).<-- correction, according to the bible, the animals boarded the Ark on their own accord in a civilized, ordered manner and therefore would not want to eat each other.

Granny Magda writes

quote:
Lions cannot be raised to look on all other animals as "friends".

Lioness adopts third baby antelope
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1905363.stm

Perhaps it IS POSSIBLE for a lion to look on other animals as friends? But please don't mistake my post as evidence FOR the flood/Noah's ark myth. It is a childish idea, I am often surprised how much time is spent debating this nonsense.

regards


Cogito, ergo Deus non est
This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Granny Magda, posted 02-04-2009 9:38 PM Granny Magda has responded

Replies to this message:
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pix1
Junior Member (Idle past 3607 days)
Posts: 3
Joined: 02-05-2009


Message 303 of 347 (497674)
02-05-2009 1:02 PM


I don't mean to be facetious but I should have thought that a fleet of ark ships made of iron would have been a better way of achieving god's aim. These would not actually need to have been built but could have been created by divine intervention in the same way, perhaps, as the later fish and bread was created to feed the 5 thousand. Noah's family could have been invested by god with the necessary sailing skills to captain iron vessels.
  
prophet
Member (Idle past 3607 days)
Posts: 54
From: Florida
Joined: 01-19-2009


Message 304 of 347 (497679)
02-05-2009 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by Percy
02-05-2009 9:14 AM


Re: Miracle or Bust
I can't even get my cats, a brother and sister pair, to tolerate each other much of the time, let alone other tasty animals that they've been exposed to since kitten-hood.

In-effective methods or certain personalities in animals allow for your problem. Sometimes what is needed is a better solution. Like a dog that continues to pull hard on the leash. Often, people complian about this. Just take the leash, hook it to the collar and then wrap loosley around the mid-section of the dog. The pulling should be instantly abated.

Can you go through for us the process of estimation and calculation you would use to calculate the required volume of the ark?

I am currently working those equasions and will display my findings soon. I'm having a bit of conflict as one post claims 127 different "types" another 29,000. One claims a sheep is an average size as given by a creation site, but that does in no way validae the average size animal. So, I wish to do a more rational approach than what I've seen illustrated.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Percy, posted 02-05-2009 9:14 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
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Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2380
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 305 of 347 (497680)
02-05-2009 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by dronestar
02-05-2009 12:52 PM


Re: perhaps prophet wasn't lion . . .
Hi dronester,

dronester writes:

Granny writes:

Lions cannot be raised to look on all other animals as "friends".

Perhaps it IS POSSIBLE for a lion to look on other animals as friends?

Indeed it is. I am well aware that there are a small number of cases of animals displaying an unusual lack of aggression toward other animals that they might normally regard as prey. That isn't the issue though. Note the bolded section of my quote above. I wrote "all" for a reason :)

Demonstrating that some individual animals can be peaceable toward other individual animals does nothing to make prophet's case. What would be needed here would be evidence that all, or at least a very high percentage of animals could be deliberately raised this way, not merely evidence of an unusual behaviour in a wild animal. A great many animals would need to be raised this way, not just a handful, but literally thousands. They would also need to maintain this friendly relationship under extreme stress and with all of the animals with which they were housed, something that is clearly not happening in the case you cite. Bear in mind that the lioness must be hunting and killing some animals, or she would not survive.

Note this bit from the cited article;

BBC News writes:

When the last calf was eaten by a male lion while she slept, the lioness was said to have been stricken with grief - she went around roaring in anger.

Great. Let's suppose a calf dies. Now we have an insane and maternally outraged lioness aboard. This is not helping make Noah's job any easier. Nor does it sound as though it would work with male lions. Note this part too;

BBC News writes:

Cases of lionesses showing maternal affection for animals they would normally see as prey are not unprecedented, conservationist Daphne Sheldrick said.

"It does happen, but it's quite unusual. Lions, like all the other species, including human beings, have this kind of feelings for babies," she said.

Your example is certainly very interesting, but it is clearly an aberration and not something that has been deliberately induced by human handlers. It is limited to one calf at a time, with one very confused lioness. It is far from the level of tameness and ubiquity that would be required for prophet's idea to make even the slightest bit of sense.

quote:
But please don't mistake my post as evidence FOR the flood/Noah's ark myth. It is a childish idea, I am often surprised how much time is spent debating this nonsense.

Yeah, it's shocking isn't it. Grown adults are seriously debating an idea that should have been rejected by any sensible person at about the same time as they stopped believing in Santa.

Welcome to EvC! ;)

Mutate and Survive


"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade
This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by dronestar, posted 02-05-2009 12:52 PM dronestar has responded

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kuresu
Member (Idle past 591 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 306 of 347 (497685)
02-05-2009 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by prophet
02-05-2009 2:19 PM


Re: Miracle or Bust
The (ir)rationality you are dealing is coming from creationist sources.

The claim of 127 kinds came from Peg (www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=1&t=409&m=40#40 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=1&t=409&m=40#40">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=1&t=409&m=40#40).

The number 29,000 is actually the total number of organisms, assuming two/kind, and that number is pulled from (www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=1&t=409&m=149 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=1&t=409&m=149">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=1&t=409&m=149)

A third source gives 50,000 animals (www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=1&t=409&m=137 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=1&t=409&m=137">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=1&t=409&m=137)

average size of animal is also from creationist sources, which has previously been explained. The justification is because you can squeeze a sheep into a 3.7^3 box (not that the creationist website realizes this is largely impossible for anything but a couple of days)
The same source also gives two different "kinds", one at 1,000 kinds and one at 8,000 kinds (I'm assuming they can at least multiply a number by 2, but if they actually meant 2,000 kinds, then it's obviously 4,000 animals. Hard to tell with them).

So quite frankly, we've dealt with this as rationally as possible, since creationists themselves can't get their own story straight.


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 Message 304 by prophet, posted 02-05-2009 2:19 PM prophet has not yet responded

  
prophet
Member (Idle past 3607 days)
Posts: 54
From: Florida
Joined: 01-19-2009


Message 307 of 347 (497686)
02-05-2009 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by DevilsAdvocate
02-02-2009 9:43 PM


Re: standards?
In storms people are instructed to not lock there knees, to stand on the balls of there toes and to hold on to fixed structures of the ship to keep from getting hurt. In the strongest of storms, movement about the ship is secured (not allowed) and unless you are standing watch you are strapped into your rack (bed). When I would crawl into my rack I would put boondockers (my boots) underneath my mattress to help wedge me against the wall of my rack and would attach the strapps across the opening of the rack to keep me from falling out.

My neighbor is going on a cruise to the Bahamas this weekend. She has extreme difficutly with walking and balance. Along with her, will be others of her developed years and arthritic conditions. She went on the same cruise before and in about the same condition. Imagine an entire ship of old people being tossed about, extremely angry because of the inflicted pains... eating each other because the galley is un-obtainable and don't work... and yet the liner makes money? That is to say; there are parts in your descriptions that err.

I should tell her of the necessity for her to take boon dockers and strapping to keep her in the bed? Your claim is like nearly every other post ...an extremist's view. How do you expect to arrive close to a correct conclusion when you apply whatever extreme principals needed to reflect the outcome you wish?

Remember, just because the Ark is found feesible does not mean it was true. And just because science cannot prove the Ark feesible does not mean it was not done. Keep this in mind, to discourage prejudiced research. :0


This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-02-2009 9:43 PM DevilsAdvocate has responded

Replies to this message:
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prophet
Member (Idle past 3607 days)
Posts: 54
From: Florida
Joined: 01-19-2009


Message 308 of 347 (497693)
02-05-2009 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by Capt Stormfield
02-02-2009 5:04 PM


Re: standards?
Any attempt to hypothesize about the utilization of a space for the transportation of animals that does not consider the extemely violent circumstances in which such activities are taking place is at first (to be charitable) ignorant; by now, dishonest.

It is not my quest to rule out entirely, all the violence the Ark endures. It is the lack in understanding that this is not necessarily a constant turmoil for the duration, that you imply, of which I take exception. One claims the Ark is an extremely stable vessel, another claims it is extremely lacking stability. Cruise ships seem to do OK.
:)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Capt Stormfield, posted 02-02-2009 5:04 PM Capt Stormfield has not yet responded

DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1179 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 309 of 347 (497695)
02-05-2009 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 307 by prophet
02-05-2009 3:10 PM


Re: standards?
My neighbor is going on a cruise to the Bahamas this weekend.

And how long is that cruise? What at most 1 or 2 days to the Bahamas from Port Canaveral and then 1 to 2 days at sea on the way back. That is not even close to 12+ months that Noah, his family and the animals were on the Ark.

She has extreme difficutly with walking and balance. Along with her, will be others of her developed years and arthritic conditions. She went on the same cruise before and in about the same condition. Imagine an entire ship of old people being tossed about, extremely angry because of the inflicted pains... eating each other because the galley is un-obtainable and don't work... and yet the liner makes money?

Yes, because if there was a storm or any other problems they would not leave port or they would go around the storm. The Ark did not have this capability. It had no source of propulsion according to the Bible and could not divert around storms or cancel port calls. And 1 or 2 days of steaming in a large floating 3 star-hotel constructed of steel floating in the relative calm waters of the Caribbeans in calm weather does not compare to living on a floating zoo for over a year and subject to "the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened." and "nd the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters. And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered." and " Also the fountains of the deep and the floodgates of the sky were closed, and the rain from the sky was restrained;"

That is to say; there are parts in your descriptions that err.

They are not in error. Are you calling me a liar?

I should tell her of the necessity for her to take boon dockers and strapping to keep her in the bed?

If she is on a ship for 7+ months exposed to all different conditions of weather, YES. There have been cruise liners and supermassive oil tankers larger than cruise liners that have scuttled and sunk due to adverse weather conditions as shown here:


Click to enlarge

Your claim is like nearly every other post ...an extremist's view.

And you don't count 12+ months aboard the largest wooden boat and floating zoo in history in the largest flood in the entire Earth's history extreme? Be realistic now.

How do you expect to arrive close to a correct conclusion when you apply whatever extreme principals needed to reflect the outcome you wish?

What outcome would that be? That this is the biggest fabricated story ever told?

Remember, just because the Ark is found feesible does not mean it was true.

It is far from feasible. You have yet to produce a convincing argument.

And just because science cannot prove the Ark feesible does not mean it was not done. Keep this in mind, to discourage prejudiced research. :0

LOL, your a joke. Keep wishful thinking.


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan
This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by prophet, posted 02-05-2009 3:10 PM prophet has not yet responded

Percy
Member
Posts: 18309
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 310 of 347 (497697)
02-05-2009 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by prophet
02-05-2009 2:19 PM


Re: Miracle or Bust
prophet writes:

I am currently working those equasions and will display my findings soon. I'm having a bit of conflict as one post claims 127 different "types" another 29,000. One claims a sheep is an average size as given by a creation site, but that does in no way validae the average size animal. So, I wish to do a more rational approach than what I've seen illustrated.

As gets pointed out in every thread where this comes up, including this one, the fundamental problem always turns out to be that there's no definition of "kind", with the result that there's no way to know how many animals were on the ark. Define "kind" too similarly to species and the ark is obviously not big enough, not even close. Define "kind" too close to higher levels of organization like family and order and you end up needing hyper-evolution in order to produce the huge variety of species we see today, which isn't the topic of this thread but which you obviously also want to avoid.

I think you would be well advised to abandon the guesses from creationists and base your work upon information from the real world, like I suggested in my Message 284 about the San Diego zoo, which knows how to keep animals alive for not only months but years.

You argue elsewhere that even if science cannot prove the ark happened, science also cannot prove it didn't happen. The reality is that science doesn't prove anything, it only supports hypotheses with evidence which when sufficiently confirmed may attain the status of accepted theory.

Your argument equates to saying that just because there's no evidence in support of the flood hypothesis that that doesn't mean it didn't happen, which no one here would disagree with, but we're baffled why you find this comforting, because it groups your hypothesis with everything else that never happened. Like the cow jumping over the moon: no evidence, just like the flood. Like Pinocchio's nose growing when he lied: no evidence, just like the flood. Need I go on?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by prophet, posted 02-05-2009 2:19 PM prophet has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by prophet, posted 02-05-2009 6:24 PM Percy has responded

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2794 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 311 of 347 (497700)
02-05-2009 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 307 by prophet
02-05-2009 3:10 PM


Applicability
My neighbor is going on a cruise to the Bahamas this weekend.

Is she going by unpowered, gopher wood ark during the greatest down pour the world has ever seen with elephants and rhinoceroses and lions and bears and apatosauruses and…?

In message 287 prophet writes:

Actually, you are not even close. The kind of proof I possess is not subjective - though some may try to make it such. You are correct, in that it is of little use in a debate... It is like bringing tigers to a debate about whether or not tigers exists. Kinda, sorta well... destroys the debate. The proof "I feel, I have" it would still allow one to consider Noah's Ark required more than science. It would prove more than science was available. It is just not yet time for me to show this, but it will be here soon...

The time to throw in evidence in a science debate is up front. That is because it's the evidence one is supposed to be arguing. You're looking for a way to con people or showing your ignorance about how best to get to a reliable-ish conclusion in the natural world.

If you are going to allow magic as a solution to the parts of the story why not cut to the chase and say there are no natural limits to get in the way of it having happened as the story says it happened?

In message 281 prophet writes:

ICU really R lost in space.

If you're going to avoid the point could you at least try to be clever?

AbE:

In message 308 prophet writes:

It is the lack in understanding that this is not necessarily a constant turmoil for the duration, that you imply, of which I take exception.


True enough. How many time can an animal be crushed to death before it stops being usefully reproductive?

AbE: Maybe you have a solution after all. I was looking up info on shipping and found that when shipping grain or gravel the hole is filled, then planking and framework is installed to keep the cargo from shifting as the ship rocks from side to side. Had Noah suspected rough seas — not hard to imagine —  he would have packed the animals together in some kind of M. C. Esher-tetris type pattern saving space like crazy. Hope I didn't blow your surprise evidence before you were ready to reveal it.

Edited by lyx2no, : Save a post

Edited by lyx2no, : Save yet another post.


Genesis 2
17 But of the ponderosa pine, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou shinniest thereof thou shalt sorely learn of thy nakedness.
18 And we all live happily ever after.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by prophet, posted 02-05-2009 3:10 PM prophet has not yet responded

dronestar
Member (Idle past 417 days)
Posts: 1379
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 312 of 347 (497703)
02-05-2009 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by Granny Magda
02-05-2009 2:25 PM


Re: perhaps prophet wasn't lion . . .
Hi Granny Magda,

All your points are, of course, correct. I am sorry to have caused you the need to expend so much time/effort. (But perhaps I wasn't really the intended recipient and you felt it best to publicly debunk silly notions my post could potentially create.) ; )

Like you wrote, the operative word is "all".

However one petty item . . .

quote:
there are a small number of cases of animals displaying an unusual lack of aggression toward other animals that they might normally regard as prey

Ummm, in nature yes, . . . but. . .

quote:
it is clearly an aberration and not something that has been deliberately induced by human handlers

I believe you are generally correct. However, if you would indulge my extreme nitpicking, , . . . I believe sheepdogs (border collies? memory fails which breed) are trained NOT to attack sheep, but rather herd them. This trained behavior would be an aberration if found in nature.

But I too think it ridiculous to extrapolate this one example to the entire animal kingdom. Like you wrote, the operative word is "all", and a believer should not be using my asides for evidence of a flood/Noah myth. I'd be mortified. Since I don't want to give them any more crazy notions, I'll shout up now. : )

regards


Cogito, ergo Deus non est
This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by Granny Magda, posted 02-05-2009 2:25 PM Granny Magda has not yet responded

prophet
Member (Idle past 3607 days)
Posts: 54
From: Florida
Joined: 01-19-2009


Message 313 of 347 (497721)
02-05-2009 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 310 by Percy
02-05-2009 3:55 PM


Re: Miracle or Bust
As gets pointed out in every thread where this comes up, including this one, the fundamental problem always turns out to be that there's no definition of "kind", with the result that there's no way to know how many animals were on the ark.

I am aware of this dilema ...I am also, avoiding it for the time being.

...like I suggested in my Message 284 about the San Diego zoo, which knows how to keep animals alive for not only months but years.

The zoo provides more than adequate space for the express purpose of the visitors... us. So, this must also be reviewed.

The reality is that science doesn't prove anything, it only supports hypotheses with evidence which when sufficiently confirmed may attain the status of accepted theory.

Fair enough, but... when, in the end, it is stated by a member that the Ark must be a story... (and this has been done numerous times) the issue of how science deals with this issue displays a point outside "its" [explained by you] boundaries that it has none-the-less projected to or through those members [at least here] of science.

Your argument equates to saying that just because there's no evidence in support of the flood hypothesis that that doesn't mean it didn't happen,

Actually, throughout this thread this train of thought has been offered many tims by many members. I simply stated it, to allow one to understand that I have not arrived at any conclusions.

On the issue whether or not the Ark actually was a real vessel and the flood actually took place... whether or not science can prove or even IF it can dis-prove [for the time being]this event more than my belief - I know it happened... I know God is REAL, I know not jut because of my faith, any religion, or whatever...non-tangible ideas you may wish to iunclude... I know this, as well as you know how to add and subtract. Meaning, the question I ponder is again the feesibility of Noah's Ark through science.

And... I'm geeting too cold...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by Percy, posted 02-05-2009 3:55 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 314 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-05-2009 7:58 PM prophet has not yet responded
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DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1179 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 314 of 347 (497725)
02-05-2009 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 313 by prophet
02-05-2009 6:24 PM


Re: Miracle or Bust
The zoo provides more than adequate space for the express purpose of the visitors... us. So, this must also be reviewed.

You obviously have not been to the San Diego zoo. The ample amount of space there is more for the animals than it is for us. The San Diego Wild Park has even more room for the animals than the zoo.
Last time I went in the middle of the peak summer time season, the park almost looked empty due to the vast tracks of land the animals lived on compared to the amount of people taking trams around the park.

Many animals need there "personal" space alot more than civilized and pampered societal animals such as humans do. Wild animals like lions, elephants, zebra and the like are accostomed to roaming over large savannahs spanning thousands of square miles not living in small pins for months at a time on a floating zoo.

BTW, here is an assignment for you. Go talk to a real zoologist or biologist and ask him what would happen if you gathered a bunch of different "kinds" of animals i.e. lions, tigers, zebras, elephants, giraffes, monkeys, hippotamouses, rhinos, horses, buffalo, antelope, sheep, pigs, rodents, birds, reptiles, etc and put them in 10x10 ft adjacent inclosures in a warehouse for 1 year without letting them out or giving them room to move about. Then ask what would happen to these animals. I think you would be pleasently suprised the answer. I would venture close to 80-90% of these animals would perish before the year is out or a lot sooner. Now add bad weather and constantly moving vessel into the factor and this number would jump up close to 100%.

You are dillusional to think this could ever happen naturally. Could this happen? Miraculously (supernaturally), sure (which would also remove all doubt about the Loch Nes monster and Big Foot being real). Naturally, hell no.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan
This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by prophet, posted 02-05-2009 6:24 PM prophet has not yet responded

Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2071 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 315 of 347 (497726)
02-05-2009 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 313 by prophet
02-05-2009 6:24 PM


Re: Miracle or Bust
When you do the calculations, Proph, make sure to allow for extra food at the end. Why? Well, the critters will have to be force-fed before leaving, otherwise, in the first few days, weeks, months, the predators will--um--predate.
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