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Author Topic:   Faith and belief - The Almighty God revealed through his grandness
Modulous
Member (Idle past 208 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 76 of 224 (497836)
02-06-2009 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Cedre
02-06-2009 7:53 AM


Evolution fails to explain morallity in this instances and there are more examples but I'll stop here.

The exact details of each one are not simple, but evolution can easily explain why people do the things you listed just now: Nature is red in tooth and claw.
Evolution is about survival of genes, not the survival of the species. The survival of the species is a byproduct of the survival of the genes.

This is a thread in its own right. Perhaps we can take the discussion to one? Maybe Evolutionary Explanation for Morality?

To shift us back onto topic, the monotheist, when discussing religion must answer the following, "Is what is moral commanded by God because it is moral, or is it moral because it is commanded by God?". Perhaps your answer will reveal the Almighty God through its grandness?

Oh and by the way, this thread is 25% complete since they close at about 300 posts. I hope you planned for that.

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Cedre, posted 02-06-2009 7:53 AM Cedre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Cedre, posted 02-06-2009 8:57 AM Modulous has responded

Cedre
Member (Idle past 23 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 77 of 224 (497837)
02-06-2009 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Vacate
02-06-2009 8:28 AM


Re: Who decided?
Well I consider the bible to be the ultimate teacher of moral awareness, it teaches pure and unpolluted morality, have you tried reading it. Its paramount message is love. God tells us that the most important command is to love Him with all your heart and mind, and the second most important command that follows is to love others as much as you love yourself. It also teaches that the greatest symbolic representation of love is to lay down your life for a friend. and if you read the ten commandments, there you are bombarded with more do's and dont's, all ethically sound.

Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.

Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Vacate, posted 02-06-2009 8:28 AM Vacate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-06-2009 8:56 AM Cedre has not yet responded
 Message 82 by Vacate, posted 02-06-2009 9:15 AM Cedre has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14801
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 78 of 224 (497840)
02-06-2009 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Cedre
02-06-2009 8:31 AM


quote:

PaulK, what you fail to understand is that God has the power to bring forth life at will

No, what YOU fail to understand is that none of this is in Peg's argument. We have never observed God creating life, so if our observation is taken as the limit of what is possible we must rule that out too. If it is not then Peg's argument fails to rule out life coming from non-life and we must look to other arguments.

quote:

IF we reason that god is the creator of everything that exist including laws, than in fact the natural laws also have a lawmaker.


This does not address my point. There must be regularities that do not require a law-maker - because regularities are a precondition for law-makers and law-making.

quote:

And as far as cause and effect is concerned, these principles are a part of our daily experience, and that is how it goes, we have never seen an effect without a cause.


Because something that does not hava a cause is not an effect. But it is certainly not clear that all things have a sufficient cause. And, unless you insist on an infinite regress there must be at least one cause that is not an effect. Can you show that the universe is an effect ? If not, the argument fails.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Cedre, posted 02-06-2009 8:31 AM Cedre has not yet responded

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1205 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 79 of 224 (497841)
02-06-2009 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Cedre
02-06-2009 8:46 AM


Re: Who decided?
Well I consider the bible to be the ultimate teacher of moral awareness, it teaches pure and unpolluted morality, have you tried reading it.

You mean these parts:

Ephesians 6:5 writes:

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear.

Leviticus 25:44-46 writes:

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.

Exodus 21:7 writes:

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.

Ezekiel 9:5-7 writes:

Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told.

I could go on. The Bible is a poor example of morality, though I do admire some of Jesus teachings. However, even the Golden Rule is found in over 10 other major world religions and altruism is systemic of human society with or without religion.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan
This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Cedre, posted 02-06-2009 8:46 AM Cedre has not yet responded

Cedre
Member (Idle past 23 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 80 of 224 (497842)
02-06-2009 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Modulous
02-06-2009 8:42 AM


Re: Modulous
What does your gut tell you, do you think its right to kill. Would you mind if I killed your mother and father, would you retain any sorrow in your heart after the deed, or anger toward me. The answer is simple what is moral is commanded by God because it is moral.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Modulous, posted 02-06-2009 8:42 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-06-2009 9:08 AM Cedre has not yet responded
 Message 83 by Modulous, posted 02-06-2009 9:23 AM Cedre has responded

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1205 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 81 of 224 (497844)
02-06-2009 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Cedre
02-06-2009 8:57 AM


Re: Modulous
What does your gut tell you, do you think its right to kill. Would you mind if I killed your mother and father, would you retain any sorrow in your heart after the deed, or anger toward me. The answer is simple what is moral is commanded by God because it is moral.

So you are only moral because God commands you to be? This question has been rehashed over and over and was actually originally brought up by Plato over 2300 years ago as the Euthyphro dilemma: Is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods? Is what God dictates as moral because it is moral, or is behavior moral because God commands it. That is is morality independent of God. If so then God himself is subject to a higher law, that of morality. If not, than God can call murder or anyother attrocity "good" and we would could not question his intentions and thus in essense subject and commanded to perform cruel, brutal vicious actions in the name of morality.

Do you see the dilemna here, Cedre?

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan
This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Cedre, posted 02-06-2009 8:57 AM Cedre has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Peg, posted 02-06-2009 7:12 PM DevilsAdvocate has responded

Vacate
Member (Idle past 2705 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 82 of 224 (497846)
02-06-2009 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Cedre
02-06-2009 8:46 AM


Re: Who decided?
Well I consider the bible to be the ultimate teacher of moral awareness

That much is obvious, as a matter of fact many non-believers of Christianity would consider the bible as a valid source for some moral awareness. My point is we as humans have decided the bible is a valid source of morality; but we as humans have also decided that many of the teachings in the bible are no longer morally accurate in our society. Point of fact there are many things in the bible we consider morally abhorrent. We choose to avoid them, God apparently choose to decree them.

it teaches pure and unpolluted morality

Oh? Whats your stance on slavery? Or stoning your children to death?

God tells us that the most important command is to love Him with all your heart and mind, and the second most important command that follows is to love others as much as you love yourself.

The first is not about morality, the second is the "The Golden Rule", certainly a good way to lead ones life, but we don't need the bible to come to that conclusion. We don't even need religion to come to that conclusion as logic will do just fine.

and if you read the ten commandments, there you are bombarded with more do's and dont's, all ethically sound.

The first four are not even about morality. The next few are just fine but the last is pretty shaky in the morality department, more of a recommendation to relieve stress. Hardly a bombardment of morality.

The reason for my question: Who has decided that the morality written about in the bible is correct?, is that though the bible teaches morality - humanity has decided what is right and wrong, not the bible. You pick and choose what to accept, our society picks and chooses. Though the bible dictates, it is US who decide what is moral.

Why then do you feel its correct to say "Morality points to God, he is the author of it.? He may be the author, as many assert, but He is not the decider of what our society accepts to be right and wrong. We decide and there are plenty of examples where that is obviously the case.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Cedre, posted 02-06-2009 8:46 AM Cedre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Cedre, posted 02-06-2009 9:30 AM Vacate has responded

Modulous
Member (Idle past 208 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 83 of 224 (497848)
02-06-2009 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Cedre
02-06-2009 8:57 AM


What does your gut tell you, do you think its right to kill.

It depends on who is doing the killing and who is being killed and why.

Would you mind if I killed your mother and father, would you retain any sorrow in your heart after the deed, or anger toward me.

Yes I would mind. Interestingly, I would mind much less if you killed someone else's mother and father (say some African parents or some Indonesian ones).

The answer is simple what is moral is commanded by God because it is moral.

So morality is independent of God and God is bound by that morality just as we are? God is just a messenger of morality, not its creator?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Cedre, posted 02-06-2009 8:57 AM Cedre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Cedre, posted 02-06-2009 9:34 AM Modulous has responded

Cedre
Member (Idle past 23 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 84 of 224 (497851)
02-06-2009 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Vacate
02-06-2009 9:15 AM


Re: Who decided?
I have not known atleast mainstream christians picking and choosing from the bible they take it just as it is. Though I will say certain things in the bible we may not understand at first sight it doesn't mean that it is wrong or subject to correction, we just need to understand it first. In any case trying to understand the bible from an acedemical point of view isn't the right way to apporach its text, God actually reveals spiritual insights to earnest seekers of the truth. The old testemant and the new testament also differ in certain teaching, what was relevant back there isn't quite relevant today, what is relevant for us today is the text of the new testament first and foremost. It was written for our age. there are answers for this difficult questions out there I'm no expert on theology and I don't claim to have all the answers concerning biblical text but I rely on my faith in God to help me understand the sacret text of the bible. first and foremost, we are encouraged to strive toward Christlikeness, and commiting our lives to daily studies of scripture will help us on that journey, But picking out pieces of scripture with the aim of devasting it, will not help you understand it. You must really read it to understand it, and ask God to unfold it to you.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Vacate, posted 02-06-2009 9:15 AM Vacate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Vacate, posted 02-06-2009 9:59 AM Cedre has not yet responded
 Message 91 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-06-2009 11:10 AM Cedre has not yet responded

  
Cedre
Member (Idle past 23 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 85 of 224 (497853)
02-06-2009 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Modulous
02-06-2009 9:23 AM


Re: Modulous
What is your point exactly? God has no choice but to be moral, that way we can depend on him to be always a good God. His very nature has strong ties with morality the bible syas that God is love so it has been with him all along, he doesn't fish it out from another authority, it has always been with him just as his power has.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Modulous, posted 02-06-2009 9:23 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Modulous, posted 02-06-2009 9:44 AM Cedre has not yet responded
 Message 88 by Huntard, posted 02-06-2009 9:46 AM Cedre has not yet responded
 Message 92 by onifre, posted 02-06-2009 11:42 AM Cedre has not yet responded

  
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5380
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 86 of 224 (497855)
02-06-2009 9:41 AM


Dammit! I miss one day and the circus comes to town!

Cedre, do you have any remote idea as to how many times your superstitions have been debunked on this site alone?

Read this, Cedre:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0004366

{Irrelevant and/or off-topic content hidden - Adminnemooseus}

Edited by Coragyps, : add link

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : See above.


Replies to this message:
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Modulous
Member (Idle past 208 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 87 of 224 (497856)
02-06-2009 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Cedre
02-06-2009 9:34 AM


Euthyphro
God has no choice but to be moral...he doesn't fish it out from another authority, it has always been with him just as his power has.

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. You accept that God and morality are separate things? That God does not decide what is right or what is wrong, that Moral Law is that which God must prostrate before? Yet at the same time, God doesn't fish it from another authority?

Are you trying to have cake and eat it? Where did this moral law come from, and if it is separate from God why bring God up in a discussion about morality? Why not appeal to the ultimate morality that all beings, including God, must be beholden to?

There are some solutions to the dilemma that I won't bother arguing with you on, but your current solution seems a little incoherent. Perhaps you could expand on it a little?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Cedre, posted 02-06-2009 9:34 AM Cedre has not yet responded

Huntard
Member (Idle past 399 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 88 of 224 (497857)
02-06-2009 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Cedre
02-06-2009 9:34 AM


Re: Modulous
Cedre writes:

God has no choice but to be moral, that way we can depend on him to be always a good God.


Like when he killed Lot's innocent wife?


I hunt for the truth
This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Cedre, posted 02-06-2009 9:34 AM Cedre has not yet responded

  
Vacate
Member (Idle past 2705 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 89 of 224 (497859)
02-06-2009 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Cedre
02-06-2009 9:30 AM


Re: Who decided?
Though I will say certain things in the bible we may not understand at first sight it doesn't mean that it is wrong or subject to correction

So the quotes made by DevilsAdvocate in message 79 aren't quite clear enough to understand at first glance? Whats unclear about the quotes exactly?

The old testemant and the new testament also differ in certain teaching, what was relevant back there isn't quite relevant today

And I bet you can guess who decided whats relevant today even though the bible is pretty damn muddy.

I'm no expert on theology and I don't claim to have all the answers concerning biblical text but I rely on my faith in God to help me understand the sacret text of the bible.

So it doesn't teach "pure and unpolluted morality" but you rely on faith to teach it. Those without faith don't use faith to teach their morality yet somehow it closely resembles yours... and differs greatly from what the bible teaches. Yet I assume you disagree that society decides morality?

first and foremost, we are encouraged to strive toward Christlikeness, and commiting our lives to daily studies of scripture will help us on that journey

Name something Jesus taught that we where likely unable to ever come up with ourselves. Did Jesus offer any insight into condom use or stem cell research that would be of any benefit today? Those two issues seem to me to be two major factors in misery and death in this world and I can't help but notice its the fans of Jesus who are the obstacles to progress.

But picking out pieces of scripture with the aim of devastating it, will not help you understand it.

True enough, that's why I have no intention of quoting a mountain of scripture to prove my point. I am confident that you are aware of the same quotes and can recite apologetics all day if pressed. Lets just stick with the basics: you have chosen to ignore certain things from the bible because present day society considers them evil, correct?

You must really read it to understand it, and ask God to unfold it to you.

How do you know I didn't really read it? Have you really read it? Why do you assume that a person has not read something just because he disagrees with it? Or can you tell a person who has really read the bible by his/her ability to cherry pick scripture to make it seem flawless?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Cedre, posted 02-06-2009 9:30 AM Cedre has not yet responded

AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 90 of 224 (497862)
02-06-2009 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Coragyps
02-06-2009 9:41 AM


Use of Links
Coragyps, we don't argue with links here. Thank you.

ABE

It is also not on topic here ( I don't think)

Edited by AdminNosy, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Coragyps, posted 02-06-2009 9:41 AM Coragyps has not yet responded

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