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Author Topic:   Eternal Life (thanks, but no thanks)
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 1106 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 46 of 296 (497809)
02-06-2009 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Blue Jay
02-05-2009 5:32 PM


Re: what eternity means
I have often heard this. Most often, I have heard "glorify" Him interpreted as singing songs.

For eternity.

You don't think we'll get bored of that eventually?

We glorify God by who we are in Him and what we do with Him. Some may get bored not going to a place where we can enjoy God forever, but that's another subject.

Blessings


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Blue Jay, posted 02-05-2009 5:32 PM Blue Jay has not yet responded

    
Modulous
Member (Idle past 215 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 47 of 296 (497818)
02-06-2009 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by iano
02-06-2009 6:56 AM


Kim il-YHWH
Fair enough. But you would recognise that your engaging in sheer guesswork wouldn't you? Like, your inability to conceive of possibilities can't be supposed to limit God's ability to conceive of possibilities.

All your talk about God and the afterlife and having only the choice between two fates is in exactly the same boat as mine: guesswork. As long as we both recognize this we can get to the heart of the issue - is immortality something to be desired and if so, why?

Given all that holds your interest has been rendered by God I find that a little hard to swallow. That said, this gig is about where one's heart lies - whether your heart plumps for that which God hates (evil) or for that which God loves (righteousness). The person whose hearts plumps for evil will hate that which God stands for. They might well considering him boring.

Exactly my point. And if God has rendered my interest in what you have called 'evil' then I may well find him boring. It's not just my heart though is it? You mustn't forget the kidneys :p (Rev 2:23)

There is no reason to dread eternal life other than by distrusting God.

But I don't even know what I'm supposed to be trusting him to do and why trusting him to do it would be a good thing. For all I can tell I want to trust that he won't do it.

Existing without pain or suffering? Getting to actually see God - who I don't find boring in the least? Not being capable of evil anymore - meaning no more shame and no more guilt attaching to evil actions of mine?

Sounds like going to Hollywood. I'll get stripped of everything that makes me human, forced to smile and be happy, and then meet the biggest celebrity ever. Bleurch.

It's not me you're addressing here Mod. It's God. And he has given you the right to shake your fist in his face and demand of him things you have no right to demand - but only for a time.

Either you relinquish your right to shake your fist at him and kneel on his terms or that temporary right to shake your fist will be taken away from you for good. That's the only choice you're being offered.

Some make the mistake of supposing that Hell, for all it's horror, will permit a person to maintain a "I did it my way" attitude and hold two fingers up to God. How often we read them supposing the price worth paying - if only they can maintain independance, if only they can have the final say. They don't realise that it's God who sustains the persons ability to do as they do. And that he will remove that sustanance at a point.

Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Even those in Hell.

Translation: This is an absolutist totalitarian dictatorship with no escape. Your choice is to either accept that, or accept that. You will conform.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by iano, posted 02-06-2009 6:56 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by iano, posted 02-06-2009 8:12 AM Modulous has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 51 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 48 of 296 (497823)
02-06-2009 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Modulous
02-06-2009 7:41 AM


Re: Kim il-YHWH
All your talk about God and the afterlife and having only the choice between two fates is in exactly the same boat as mine: guesswork. As long as we both recognize this we can get to the heart of the issue - is immortality something to be desired and if so, why?

Dispose of the model your question interrogates and you dispose of the question itself. As it happens this model disposes of the question in various ways - which is perhaps why you're disposing of it?

-

But I don't even know what I'm supposed to be trusting him to do and why trusting him to do it would be a good thing. For all I can tell I want to trust that he won't do it.

That misses the point. The point is that you currently distrust him and such distrust is the preserve of the still-lost. It's an identifying marker of the lost if you like. Which means you don't have to question whether eternal life will be to your liking - for you're not currently in line to receive it. The saved have as a marker trust-in-God and wouldn't be questioning whether or not eternal life will be to their liking. They trust that it will be.

-

Sounds like going to Hollywood. I'll get stripped of everything that makes me human, forced to smile and be happy, and then meet the biggest celebrity ever. Bleurch.

Er...it's not desired that you remain human. It's desired that you be elevated in status - to be adopted as a child of God. To be someone's child is to be of the same order as the parent.

Hell on the other hand involves a reduction in order - a complete fall from your current state. You get stripped of all that is good and attractive about a human being.

-

Translation: This is an absolutist totalitarian dictatorship with no escape. Your choice is to either accept that, or accept that. You will conform.

God is indeed sovereign and he does indeed call the shots.

At the moment you enjoy elements of being made in his image and likeness. And you enjoy elements of being fallen and evil. Your choice is whether you want to be fully conformed into his image and likeness or whether you want to be fully conformed into falleness and evil.

This life is the half way house where you get to decide which it's to be.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Modulous, posted 02-06-2009 7:41 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by bluescat48, posted 02-06-2009 8:33 AM iano has responded
 Message 50 by Modulous, posted 02-06-2009 8:46 AM iano has responded

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2300 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 49 of 296 (497832)
02-06-2009 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by iano
02-06-2009 8:12 AM


Re: Kim il-YHWH
This life is the half way house where you get to decide which it's to be.

Great, an eternity of either good crap or bad crap ie damned if you do or damned if you don't.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by iano, posted 02-06-2009 8:12 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by iano, posted 02-06-2009 8:48 AM bluescat48 has responded

    
Modulous
Member (Idle past 215 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 50 of 296 (497838)
02-06-2009 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by iano
02-06-2009 8:12 AM


Re: Kim il-YHWH
Dispose of the model your question interrogates and you dispose of the question itself. As it happens this model disposes of the question in various ways - which is perhaps why you're disposing of it?

I'm not disposing anything. I am simply pointing out that your answers are as much guesswork as mine are. Whether or not our guesses are true, it doesn't get us any closer to solving the dilemma. Your guess seems to simply be - "There is no dilemma" *hand waiving motion*.

Maybe your guess is right, but that doesn't move us forward anywhere so the discussion pretty much comes to a stop.

The point is that you currently distrust him and such distrust is the preserve of the still-lost.

You are right - I don't. Even if I did, it wouldn't solve the dilemma, I'd just not ask about it...which is the way your God seems to like it.

Er...it's not desired that you remain human. It's desired that you be elevated in status - to be adopted as a child of God. To be someone's child is to be of the same order as the parent.

Hell on the other hand involves a reduction in order - a complete fall from your current state. You get stripped of all that is good and attractive about a human being.

So I won't survive my death? Something different will come into existence from me? Then I don't really care.

If there is enough of me that survives this stripping process, then I still wonder whether I will eventually die by change or I will simply be the same not human entity for all eternity. Whichever way it pans out, I certainly don't desire it. Oh well, I'll just have to hope you guessed wrong.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by iano, posted 02-06-2009 8:12 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by iano, posted 02-06-2009 9:13 AM Modulous has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 51 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 51 of 296 (497839)
02-06-2009 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by bluescat48
02-06-2009 8:33 AM


Re: Kim il-YHWH
Great, an eternity of either good crap or bad crap ie damned if you do or damned if you don't.

If the word "crap" is to be understood as a negative and the word "good" as a positive then how can there be such a thing as a positive negative?

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by bluescat48, posted 02-06-2009 8:33 AM bluescat48 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Vacate, posted 02-06-2009 10:28 AM iano has not yet responded
 Message 58 by bluescat48, posted 02-06-2009 2:32 PM iano has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 51 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 52 of 296 (497845)
02-06-2009 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Modulous
02-06-2009 8:46 AM


Re: Kim il-YHWH
Mod writes:

I'm not disposing anything. I am simply pointing out that your answers are as much guesswork as mine are. Whether or not our guesses are true, it doesn't get us any closer to solving the dilemma. Your guess seems to simply be - "There is no dilemma" *hand waiving motion*.

The premise on which your dilemma is founded is as much guesswork as any answer of mine - meaning we are no closer to deciding there is a genuine dilemma to be addressed.

As pointed out earlier, any answer that would "assuage your fear" relies on you trusting God to deliver on that answer. Even if God showed you a snippet of what (he says is) eternal life, you'd be no better off than you are with a "God says it'll be bliss". This renders pursuit of an answer somewhat moot..

-

Even if I did, it wouldn't solve the dilemma, I'd just not ask about it...which is the way your God seems to like it.

If you trusted him you wouldn't have a dilemma. "Eternal life is going to be great because God says so - the limitations imposed by my imaginings are not limiting factors for him. Because he says it will be bliss so will it be. That's what trust is, Mod.

The picture given to us is child/father. A child trusts what his father says. God, unlike an earthy father, can always do what he says.

-

So I won't survive my death? Something different will come into existence from me? Then I don't really care.

If there is enough of me that survives this stripping process, then I still wonder whether I will eventually die by change or I will simply be the same not human entity for all eternity. Whichever way it pans out, I certainly don't desire it. Oh well, I'll just have to hope you guessed wrong.

Sub-human for all eternity would appear to be the biblical position. Of course you wouldn't desire that that be the case - but a fair choice presented to someone doesn't require that they realise the full consequence arising from their decision either way. It only requires that the choice be a balanced one.

That the consequences turn out to be far worse/better than supposed is neither here nor there.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Modulous, posted 02-06-2009 8:46 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Modulous, posted 02-06-2009 9:31 AM iano has not yet responded
 Message 104 by Jaderis, posted 02-10-2009 9:25 AM iano has responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 215 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 53 of 296 (497852)
02-06-2009 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by iano
02-06-2009 9:13 AM


Re: Kim il-YHWH
The premise on which your dilemma is founded is as much guesswork as any answer of mine - meaning we are no closer to deciding there is a genuine dilemma to be addressed.

Hence why I was asking if anyone could tell me if this was a geniune dilemma or not. You can't: simple.

If you trusted him you wouldn't have a dilemma.

As I said, I wouldn't be worried about it, but the dilemma would still exist. It might be best to avoid equivocating between 'having a dilemma' meaning 'to worry over a perceived dilemma' and the existence of the dilemma itself. Any dilemma can be 'solved' by simply hand waving it away and saying 'trust that it will be fine', but that doesn't actually solve the dilemma it just stops us worrying about it (or at least that is the intention of the hand waving).

Because he says it will be bliss so will it be. That's what trust is, Mod.

I understand - the point is that I don't want such a hollow and pointless gratification for an afterlife. Obviously, if bliss is forced upon me I will have to enjoy it. The point of my OP is that if I had a choice, I'd rather not. Unless someone can point out why the dilemma isn't a dilemma.

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by iano, posted 02-06-2009 9:13 AM iano has not yet responded

  
Vacate
Member (Idle past 2711 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 54 of 296 (497863)
02-06-2009 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by iano
02-06-2009 8:48 AM


My apologies
If the word "crap" is to be understood as a negative and the word "good" as a positive then how can there be such a thing as a positive negative?

I would suggest thinking of it like eating 5 pounds of spicy chili or 5 pounds of cheese. One nets you some bad crap and the other nets you no crap at all, but give it some time and the no crap version starts feeling pretty painful. There is my idea of heaven and hell in a cheesy food analogy!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by iano, posted 02-06-2009 8:48 AM iano has not yet responded

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1212 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 55 of 296 (497875)
02-06-2009 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by ICANT
02-05-2009 9:52 PM


Re: The theocratic dictatorship of heaven
What a beautiful sight. With the ability to walk on pure gold. The substance man spends his entire life on earth trying to gather up to leave for someone else to enjoy.

Um, have you ever seen 24 carat (100%) unprocessed gold. It is so soft and malleable that you can ding it up and damage it pretty fast by just touching and handling it, much less walking on it. You can actually bend it in your fingers with no force whatsoever. In fact there is no way to create pure 24 carat gold bars, it more accurately 23.9 carot with .1 carot of other nonprecious metals added to increase its durability. Even then you have to handly the bars very carefuly with gloves to prevent damaging them i.e. Fort Knox Bullion Depository

When the bars are handled, great care is exercised to avoid abrasion of the soft metal.

My wedding ring is 14 carats (58.3% gold, the other 42% is probably silver and copper) and it looks very different than when I first bought it. It is dull and looks very, very worn after only 6 years of use.

BTW. gold is one of the best conductors of heat. If you tried walking on it your bare feet would get frigid very fast.


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan
This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by ICANT, posted 02-05-2009 9:52 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 56 of 296 (497889)
02-06-2009 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by iano
02-06-2009 5:44 AM


Logic Vs Faith?
Your salvation remains high on my agenda.

Well I appreciate the sentiment. Even if I do inevitably think it somewhat misguided.

Buz said something vaguely similar a short while ago. Am I doing something to inspire this reaction or do you theists say that to all the unbelievers......? :p

It's true that Mod doesn't get to chose just anything he likes.

Why doesn't God just allow us to cease our existence in the oblivion of nothingness should we so desire it? Is that too much to ask?

An eternity of wishing never to have been born seems an unjust punishment for something in which we had no choice (i.e. being brought into existence in the first place)

His claim that the options are equally horrific - rendering no effective choice is entirely speculative

They are based in logic. Change or stagnation. Logically neither nor both are possible options. Thus we are left with either one or the other. Both of which he considers to be horrific.

He and we don't know what eternity will be like so can't begin to suppose what that existance will involve.

This is true. But it must be acknowledged that your heavenly version of eternity is as much speculation as is Mod's.

It really comes down to a choice of:
Speculation based on logic Vs speculation based on faith.

The best way to assuage fears based on speculation and guesswork is not to speculate and guess in the first place.

Man is an inquisitive speculative beast. To deny speculation is to deny our nature.

more humble approach would be to stand back and use your knowledge of what you can observe to begin to suppose the scale of God and suppose that delivering on eternal bliss isn't beyond his capability.

It strikes me that this is a form of speculation as well. A form of speculation rooted in faith as much as Mod's speculation is rooted in logic.

Straggler writes:

If neither change nor stagnation (i.e. absence of change) then what.............?

Who knows what the realm of eternity will throw up? That's part of the whole excitement Straggler. "No eye has seen and no mind has concieved of the wonderful things that God has prepared for those who love him". It's an utter arrogance to sit here utilising that which God has given us to suppose our way to placing boundaries on what God can give us. An utter arrogance and an argument made entirely out of bootstraps.

But is not speculation rooted in faith at least equally as arrogant and equally as unfounded?

The choice seems to be speculation rooted in logic or speculation rooted in faith.

Straggler writes:

That is what he is asking for in his OP "letter". A reasoned re-assurance that eternity of any form will not actually be horrific for the reasons he details.

Can you or God provide that reasoned re-assurance?

It seems that essentially the answer to this question is No.

Any possible reassurance relies on having faith that God's plan includes that which is above and beyond logic as we know it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by iano, posted 02-06-2009 5:44 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by iano, posted 02-06-2009 3:55 PM Straggler has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 57 of 296 (497898)
02-06-2009 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by ICANT
02-05-2009 9:52 PM


Re: The theocratic dictatorship of heaven
Your Mother and Father had sex the sperm fertilized the egg and you are the result.

So stop blaming God for your existence. Take it up with them.

Are you saying that God does not choose which eternal souls will exist?

That eternal existence is the product of random biological processes?

What a beautiful sight. With the ability to walk on pure gold. The substance man spends his entire life on earth trying to gather up to leave for someone else to enjoy.

Your materialistic view of heaven tells us more about you than it does the nature of God or the afterlife.

An eternity of Gold....WTF? Who cares and why?

Now if you think it would be hollow and pointless gratification to be able to visit anywhere in the universe you desired, live in a city in a mansion, walk on streets of pure gold, walk through the most beautiful garden that the river flows through and maybe even get to create your own universe.

God was right when He had this message for you

I have heard you claim before that those of us who disbelive seek to be "our own God". However it seems that it is you who seeks to be a God. Not I who seeks only the nothingness of oblivion at the end of my mortal existence.

Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by ICANT, posted 02-05-2009 9:52 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by ICANT, posted 02-06-2009 9:39 PM Straggler has responded

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2300 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 58 of 296 (497905)
02-06-2009 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by iano
02-06-2009 8:48 AM


Re: Kim il-YHWH
Crap is something that I would not want. The idea of good & bad are relative to the assumed "Heaven" & "Hell." Either way it is an eternity of insanity.

Edited by bluescat48, : typo as usual


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by iano, posted 02-06-2009 8:48 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by iano, posted 02-06-2009 4:05 PM bluescat48 has not yet responded

    
iano
Member (Idle past 51 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 59 of 296 (497910)
02-06-2009 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Straggler
02-06-2009 12:53 PM


Re: Logic Vs Faith?
Straggler writes:

Well I appreciate the sentiment. Even if I do inevitably think it somewhat misguided. Buz said something vaguely similar a short while ago. Am I doing something to inspire this reaction or do you theists say that to all the unbelievers......?

Not really. You're less antagonistic than some, but seeing that I was about antagonistic as one could be - right before I was saved - that's hardly a reason to be cheerful in your case. It's just that I wouldn't wish the wrath of God on my worst enemy - even if I had one.

-

Why doesn't God just allow us to cease our existence in the oblivion of nothingness should we so desire it? Is that too much to ask?

By biblical definition, those with eternal life are those who have not only submitted their will irrevocably to the will of God (notwithstanding subsequent-to-submission-sin) - and his will doesn't involve annihilation for them. They've also met him and are astonished at how fantastic he is - annihilation would be about the very last thing on their mind. That's a double whammy...

(My apologies to anyone who cringes as I once did at those words: "submission to the will of God". It can't be helped!)

-

An eternity of wishing never to have been born seems an unjust punishment for something in which we had no choice (i.e. being brought into existence in the first place)

The wishing of those in Hell will have more to do with regretting the sin committed and the means invoked in order to avoid submitting to God's management. Wishing one wasn't born causes bootstrap-level problems: if one wasn't born then one couldn't exist so as to wish the wish that would result in one not being born.

-

This is true. But it must be acknowledged that your heavenly version of eternity is as much speculation as is Mod's. It really comes down to a choice of: Speculation based on logic Vs speculation based on faith.

It's the biblical model presented - and one that happens to stalemate an objection to the (unspoken) biblical God. Mod's premise involves confining the boundaries of logic to time - but with "what is time?" being the black hole that it is, his ball is kicked towards the same "faith" touchline as mine.

-

Man is an inquisitive speculative beast. To deny speculation is to deny our nature.

I agree. And when you can deflate speculative balloons with speculative pins the worth of speculation is made manifest.

-

It strikes me that this is a form of speculation as well. A form of speculation rooted in faith as much as Mod's speculation is rooted in logic.

True, it's the kind of thing that only occurs to the person who gets to wondering what God would be like if he existed. They'd be a ways along the path from those who only seek to find ways to object - uber alles.

-

But is not speculation rooted in faith at least equally as arrogant and equally as unfounded?

The choice seems to be speculation rooted in logic or speculation rooted in faith.

God actually existing as I say vs. Mod's logic actually confined puts another spin on the relative worth of faith vs. logic. You're presuming the case you're implying here.

You've heard, no doubt, of the 2d creature who finds his way blocked by a sphere? His logic says that if he had legs as strong as the cow who jumped over the moon then he could clear the obstacle. My logic also says that he would exert far less effort were he to walk around it. If only he occupied the realm of my logic...

-

Any possible reassurance relies on having faith that God's plan includes that which is above and beyond logic as we know it.

Logic as we know it - indeed.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Straggler, posted 02-06-2009 12:53 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Straggler, posted 02-06-2009 6:35 PM iano has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 51 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 60 of 296 (497911)
02-06-2009 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by bluescat48
02-06-2009 2:32 PM


Heads you win..
bluescat writes:

Crap is something that I would not want. The idea of good & bad are relative to the assumed "Heaven" & "Hell." Either way it is an eternity of insanity.

The options are an eternity spent with one side of Gods coin vs. an eternity spent with the other side of God's coin. He doesn't offer a neutral(ised) option anymore than a coin offers to land on it's edge.

You're welcome to find a god that does though..

Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by bluescat48, posted 02-06-2009 2:32 PM bluescat48 has not yet responded

  
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