Summations Only

Hi Percy, The devil gives man an opportunity to decide what man thinks is evil and what is good. After eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil man has been deciding what he determines to be good and evil. You don't have to believe it.It does not have to make sense.That is just the way God did it.We can accept it or reject it.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

No. You are ignorant to think that you, and the few that follow the same narrow path that you follow, are immune to this deceit, while all others have been deceived.Your confidence in this is borne of ignorance. Not reason.

What? You surely jest. So you advocate that the Sun is not at the center of the solar system but rather the Earth? The Copernican model is modifed more than it is falsified. That is certain parts are incorrect or inacurate (distances between planets, the Sun being the center of the Universe, etc) and other parts still hold true (the Earth and the other planets revolve around the sun).And what does dark energy have to do with the Copernican model???Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

But you also said, "I have never found where the devil had free will and could do what he wanted to do."Therefore it is God's will that there be, using your own words again, "an opportunity to decide what man thinks is evil and what is good."It can't be the devil's will, right? He has no will of his own, so giving us a choice between good and evil is God's will.You also say, "Therefore I believe the devil will and has taken everything in his power and used it to get people to not accept God's offer of a free full pardon since the incident in the garden with the first man." Therefore, because the devil cannot do anything that is not God's will, it must be God's will that the devil work hard to make people reject God's forgiveness. And it doesn't.--Percy

Hi ICANT, I am not arguing the conditions FOR the conviction, I'm arguing against the logic that was used to determine that what he was doing was devilishly inspired, which was the position they held. As do you now, ICANT. Different theory, same fallacious logic. And since they both use the same fallacious logic, they are both wrong. But, simply in the sense that neither has objective evidence to support it. I'm only questioning the determining factors used by you, and as a comparative example, used by the churches conviction of Galileo. You have the right to believe whatever you want ICANT, in fact, thats the reason this forum exists. People have the right to express any and all opinions/beliefs. However, in a debate formate, such as this forum, you must present evidence to support your point, if not, then why debate...?You have the right to believe as you please, I have the equal right to challenge you. If you don't like it then, to quote you... I know you do, you have repeated this in a number of posts to me and others. The question is, what evidence do you have to make this determination that isn't the same as what has been used in the past to make the same assertions and yet were wrong...?How can you be sure that a method that has proven to be unreliable is now reliable when used by you...? Without Dark Energy...? Copernican model...? I think you are outside of your field of knowledge ICANT and are now grasping for anything that you can possibly use to justify your argument.This is off topic but since you like to pretend you have a grasp on physics I'll address it. Hopefully the mods aren't to rough on me for doing so., The Copernican model is not affected by Dark Matter, you have no clue what you're talking about.

• Heavenly motions are uniform, eternal, and circular or compounded of several circles (epicycles).
• The center of the universe is near the Sun.
• Around the Sun, in order, are Mercury, Venus, Earth and Moon, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, and the fixed stars.
• The Earth has three motions: daily rotation, annual revolution, and annual tilting of its axis.
• Retrograde motion of the planets is explained by the Earth's motion.
• The distance from the Earth to the sun is small compared to the distance to the stars.

Source: Copernican heliocentrism - WikipediaDark Energy affects none of this. No, I'm not saying you are ignorant. What I'm saying is having the belief that the "devil" has infultrated modern science and is using theories to deceive mankind is borne out of ignorance and fear. It has no evidence to back it and has been proven wrong in the past when applied to other theories.What makes your belief that current theories are being devilishly advanced for the purpose of deceit valid if you have no objective evidence to back it...? AND when the same kind of belief, when applied to theories in the past, has never been right...?

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"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Hi oni, Sure you are even in the post I am replying too. What was the scientific theory before Galileo put forth his theory?The geocentric model which was held by Aristotle and Ptolemy.Were they ignorant or deceived? If deceived by whom?What was the scientific theory before the BB theory?Albert Einstien, believed in a static eternal universe. Was he ignorant or deceived? If deceived by whom?Who was fooling all those scientist? for hundreds of years?The earth is the devils kingdom at the present he is the prince and power of the air.The devil doesn't just fool people who believe in God he fool's everybody to get his end result. That being nobody accepting the free full pardon offered by God.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Straggler, If I am ignorant for believing God so be it.I had rather be ignorant and live in heaven and walk on streets of Gold than to have all the knowledge of Einstein, and all our modern scientist put together and spend eternity in a lake of fire.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi ICANT, They were limited in their knowledge, not deceived nor ignorant.However, had objective evidence to the contrary been presented to them and they rejected it flat out with no contradicting objective evidence - basically without reason other than personal belief - then YES they would be ignorant. He was limited in his knowledge, not deceived nor ignorant.However, had objective evidence to the contrary been presented to him and he rejected it flat out with no contradicting objective evidence - basically without reason other than personal belief - then YES he would be ignorant. Does not apply since they weren't being fooled, what are you even talking about? You have no objective evidence to support this statement and it does not address the logical fallacy of thinking people are being deceived through scientific theories. This makes no sense. Why would the devil need to deceive people who don't believe in God when a disbelief in God is already detrimental to eternal salvation?It would seem like only people who believe in God and eternal salvation are the target for the devils deception, right?Why waste time on those who don't believe, we are fucked anyways, right?So, it would then logically follow that NOT believing in God and eternal salvation actually spares you from the devils deception. Thanks, ICANT, for validating my atheism. - Oni

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"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Hi Percy,Percy God created angels to do everything He desired them to do. I find where none had a choice. They were created to serve Him in whatever capacity He gave them.But being God He wanted more than obedience because of programing.Therefore He created mankind and gave him the choice to choose to serve Him because He is God.If man did not want to serve Him he could serve the devil.There are no other choices. The things of God are foolishness to the natural man.But to the spiritual man they make sense.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

You using the word "ignorant" wrong. Ignorance = limited in knowledge No, they wouldn't be ignorant anymore if they got the knowledge.That they irrationaly refuse makes them something else that is not ignorant.I'm at a loss for a word for it.... perhaps foolish.... or foolishly incredulous.heh, I kinda like the sound of that.

You didn't address the point I made.You said that "the devil will and has taken everything in his power and used it to get people to not accept God's offer of a free full pardon since the incident in the garden with the first man."You also said the devil has no free will but can only do God's will.Therefore, it is God's will that the devil work at getting people to reject God.You said it doesn't have to make sense and I agreed. If you don't think it has to make sense, why do you keep trying to explain why it makes sense?--Percy

You continue to completely miss the point - I assume it's some deep rooted arrogance that doesn't allow you to admit you might be wrong.No one has called YOU ignorant. What IS being said is that belief that the devil is manipulating sceintific theories is a belief BORNE of ignorance.To use the example you gave me of Einstein. If Einstein had been presented objective evidence that contradicted anything he said, anything, and it was supported by the entire scientific community, and had been counter tested and counter tested by teams of scientist who also verified the evidence as being correct, and he still held to a stubborn stance that he was right, having NO OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE himself to counter with, just a personal belief that everyone was wrong, then his belief would be borne of ignorance. While still being considered a genius in other fields.Eventually though, he would either have to admit he was wrong in view of the mountains of evidence against him, or, be considered a fool.If one is simply going to hold to a stubborn stance having nothing but personal belief vs objective evidence, then yes, eventually this person could be just plain ignorant. But I have more faith in you ICANT. I believe you do see the logical fallacy of your belief but are not willing to humbly admit it you are wrong.[ABE] Before I get accused of using the word ignorant wrong again, ICANT is not using the word ignorant to just mean "lack of knowledge", as can be seen when reading the highlighted portion of his post that I quoted in context. In context he seems to be equating ignorance and foolishness and I see no need to split hairs. Edited by onifre, : ABE

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"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

If you wanted to say hi you didn't have to split hairs to do it - lol.I knew I wasn't properly using it in that post but I was, and this was my mistake, using in the context that ICANT seemed to be using it.Thanks though. Ok I did not say they got the knowledge, as highlighted, I said they rejected the evidence. I believe ICANT does not have knowledge of the BB or evolution, not because it's not available, but because he has rejected the information thus denying himself the knowledge...making him, in this matter, ignorant.

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"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Hi oni, I can accept that.Now my knowledge is limited and I have been here almost two years and have seen no facts to cause me to change what is known to me.There are 7 questions Here that I asked that had been asked by scientist. I have not seen any emprical evidence to solve those problemes. You have my email so if you have some you will like to inform me of I would apprciate it. Time will tell if you are correct.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Percy, The explanation was for the lurkers and those who may read this in the future.I thought I summed up the situation with the following statement. Neither one of those have to make sense to you.But they do make sense to me.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."