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Author Topic:   I Am Not An Atheist!
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 121 of 382 (497928)
02-06-2009 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by ICANT
02-06-2009 5:19 PM


Almost there
Hi ICANT,
Now my knowledge is limited and I have been here almost two years and have seen no facts to cause me to change what is known to me.
You honestly feel no need to stop thinking the devil is manipulating science to deceive man?
There are 7 questions Here that I asked that had been asked by scientist. I have not seen any emprical evidence to solve those problemes. You have my email so if you have some you will like to inform me of I would apprciate it.
I will take a look at them and try to address them, when time permits - comedy is very exhausting.
But surely you can't expect to understand this stuff with a limited knowledge - as you admit to having in these subjects - and my limited knowledge may also lead us BOTH down the wrong path. So, maybe it would be best to start off at a beginner level rather trying to solve ALL of the cosmological issues right off the bat.
Time will tell if you are correct.
However, you, right here right now, can either admit that believing that the devil is manipulating science for the pupose of deceit has no objective evidence to support it, is simply a belief held by you, and in the past this type of belief has been continuously proven to fail. Or, you can explain why you feel that this time you're right, when every other time it has been wrong. As I asked before, what makes your method better than the methods used in the past?
Then we can let time take care of the other stuff.

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by ICANT, posted 02-06-2009 5:19 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by ICANT, posted 02-06-2009 6:40 PM onifre has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 122 of 382 (497931)
02-06-2009 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by ICANT
02-06-2009 5:27 PM


Re: For ICANT and Buzsaw
You've now ignored my main point twice in a row, so for the third time, you said that "the devil will and has taken everything in his power and used it to get people to not accept God's offer of a free full pardon since the incident in the garden with the first man."
You also said the devil has no free will but can only do God's will.
Therefore, it is God's will that the devil work at getting people to reject God.
Right?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by ICANT, posted 02-06-2009 5:27 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by ICANT, posted 02-06-2009 5:52 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 123 of 382 (497933)
02-06-2009 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by onifre
02-06-2009 4:58 PM


Re: Topic
Hi oni,
onifre writes:
[ABE] Before I get accused of using the word ignorant wrong again, ICANT is not using the word ignorant to just mean "lack of knowledge",
I have knowledge of God.
I said I would rather have that knowledge and be classified as ignorant.
Than to have all the knowledge of Einstein, and all our modern scientist put together.
I am not an atheist.
I am not an agnostic.
I am a believer in one God.
I have chosen to put my eternal destiny in the hands of the God of John 3:16, 17, and 18.
I have had what every man desires, peace, joy, happiness and contentment all my life.
IOW I am satisfied with my life and have accomplished all my desires.
If when I die oni is correct and there is no God please explain to me what I will have missed.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by onifre, posted 02-06-2009 4:58 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by onifre, posted 02-06-2009 6:00 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 124 of 382 (497936)
02-06-2009 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Percy
02-06-2009 5:44 PM


Re: For ICANT and Buzsaw
Hi Percy,
Percy writes:
Right?
Correct.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Percy, posted 02-06-2009 5:44 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 125 of 382 (497938)
02-06-2009 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by ICANT
02-06-2009 5:50 PM


Re: Topic
Hi ICANT,
I said I would rather have that knowledge and be classified as ignorant.
That, however, was not the portion I highlighted.
You said:
ICANT writes:
If I am ignorant for believing God so be it.
I had rather be ignorant and live in heaven and walk on streets of Gold than to have all the knowledge of Einstein, and all our modern scientist put together and spend eternity in a lake of fire.
The highlighted portion, in context, sounds like you are saying, "If I am foolish for believe in God..."
The second statement does mean "lack of knowledge".
That is why I said you are not only using it to mean "lack of knowledge".
I have chosen to put my eternal destiny in the hands of the God of John 3:16, 17, and 18.
I have had what every man desires, peace, joy, happiness and contentment all my life.
IOW I am satisfied with my life and have accomplished all my desires.
If when I die oni is correct and there is no God please explain to me what I will have missed.
Please do not feel the need to justify your beliefs to me, my mother is the most religious person I know and I would never try to degrade that belief, of hers, nor yours, or anyones for that matter. That it gives you personal satisfaction is not the subject. I'm simply arguing against your position of science being manipulated by the devil for the purpose of deceit.

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by ICANT, posted 02-06-2009 5:50 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by ICANT, posted 02-06-2009 8:19 PM onifre has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 126 of 382 (497939)
02-06-2009 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by ICANT
02-06-2009 4:19 PM


Re: Topic
ICANT writes:
So I am ignorant if I think the devil will use anything and everything to get people to not believe in or trust God and accept His offer of a free full pardon.
Straggler writes:
No. You are ignorant to think that you, and the few that follow the same narrow path that you follow, are immune to this deceit, while all others have been deceived.
Your confidence in this is borne of ignorance. Not reason.
ICANT writes:
If I am ignorant for believing God so be it.
I had rather be ignorant and live in heaven and walk on streets of Gold than to have all the knowledge of Einstein, and all our modern scientist put together and spend eternity in a lake of fire.
No ICANT. Nobody is calling you ignorant because you believe in God. Yet again you entirely miss the point.
There are many who believe in God who, by the criteria defined by you, have also been deceived.
You are being called ignorant because of the baseless assertion that all but you (and those few that believe as you do) have been deceived. You are being called ignorant because of the baseless assertion that your beliefs, and no-one elses, are immune to such deception.
You can no more know what others know than they can know what you know.
Thus your assertions are borne of ignorance. Not reason.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by ICANT, posted 02-06-2009 4:19 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by ICANT, posted 02-06-2009 7:16 PM Straggler has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 127 of 382 (497944)
02-06-2009 6:22 PM


To Believers
In my Message 116 I say:
Percy writes:
You said that "the devil will and has taken everything in his power and used it to get people to not accept God's offer of a free full pardon since the incident in the garden with the first man."
You also said the devil has no free will but can only do God's will.
Therefore, it is God's will that the devil work at getting people to reject God.
Right?
To which ICANT replies in his Message 124
ICANT writes:
Correct.
Anyone (besides ICANT) care to comment?
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Buzsaw, posted 02-06-2009 7:18 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 128 of 382 (497947)
02-06-2009 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by onifre
02-06-2009 5:37 PM


Re: Almost there
Hi oni,
onifre writes:
So, maybe it would be best to start off at a beginner level rather trying to solve ALL of the cosmological issues right off the bat.
At 69 there is not much time left.
Because of that I rely on what the people in the know have to say to get my information from.
onifre writes:
However, you, right here right now, can either admit that believing that the devil is manipulating science for the pupose of deceit has no objective evidence to support it,
oni do you believe in God. Your answer would be no.
oni why don't you believe in God? Your answer, well there is no empirical evidence for the existence of God.
We could go around and around and we would eventually get to the point you would say: Well science has empirical evidence and therefore is trust worthy where a belief in an imaginary being is stupid.
That empirical evidence you would say is trust worthy is what I was asking for.
As it stands you think I am deceived because I believe in a faith based system which has no empirical evidence to support it.
And I believe you are deceived because you believe in an empirical evidence system which you can not produce empirical, testable evidence to reach a point that what you believe comes to be a fact.
Therefore you believe it by faith.
onifre writes:
what makes your method better than the methods used in the past?
I simply said I believe the devil is using anything and everything to keep people from accepting God's offer of a free full pardon.
I think if you will check the history those other folks were doing what they did because the offending people was challenging what the church believed and taught.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by onifre, posted 02-06-2009 5:37 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by onifre, posted 02-06-2009 7:49 PM ICANT has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 129 of 382 (497951)
02-06-2009 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by dwise1
02-06-2009 2:54 AM


Re: We Have an Answer Courtesy of ICANT
dwise1 writes:
John Morris of the ICR at the 1986 International Conference on Creationism: "If the earth is more than 10,000 years old then Scripture has no meaning." .....
The plethora of persistent false claims (AKA PRATTs) and deceptions, along with other dishonest conduct, only serves to discredit Christianity -- and the persistent creationist witness that they themselves believe that all they have at their disposal to support their religion are lies and deceptions doesn't help matters any. In accordance with the Matt 7:20 test, they prove that theirs is a false religion when Jesus is quoted as commanding to be hewn down and cast into the fire (Matt 7:19)
There you go, Dwise, practicing what you accuse creationists of; deceit.
You cite a couple of creationist quotes and apply them to creationism at large. If you've read me and a host of other creationists over the years, you should know better. Matt: 7:19 is good for the goose as well as the gander.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by dwise1, posted 02-06-2009 2:54 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 130 of 382 (497955)
02-06-2009 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Straggler
02-06-2009 6:10 PM


Re: Topic
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
You are being called ignorant because of the baseless assertion that all but you (and those few that believe as you do) have been deceived. You are being called ignorant because of the baseless assertion that your beliefs, and no-one elses, are immune to such deception.
Straggler lets assume you were defusing a bomb and there was two black wires going to the detonator. If you cut the right wire nothing happens if you cut the wrong wire it explodes.
There may be 34,000+ religious systems in the world but only one system is correct. Just like the bomb you better make the right choice.
I don't have an option I must be right.
If that makes me ignorant I can live with it. Because I would rather leave this world being that ignorant than to leave it with all the worlds knowledge.
Straggler writes:
You can no more know what others know than they can know what you know.
It does not make any difference what anybody knows.
The only thing that matters is what God says.
It does matter what we believe.
We must believe and accept what God says or else. Just like the bomb.
If there is no God there is no problem.
Why do you think people desire that there be no God?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Straggler, posted 02-06-2009 6:10 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Straggler, posted 02-07-2009 8:54 AM ICANT has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 131 of 382 (497956)
02-06-2009 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Percy
02-06-2009 6:22 PM


Re: To Believers
Percy writes:
Anyone (besides ICANT) care to comment?
Yah, I do. Just because God allowed a certain amount of leeway to Satan for the ultimate good of Job and a lesson to mankind to trust God, come hell or high water, does not mean that God has purposely dispatched the Satan to deceive the world.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Percy, posted 02-06-2009 6:22 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by ICANT, posted 02-06-2009 7:47 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 132 of 382 (497963)
02-06-2009 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Buzsaw
02-06-2009 7:18 PM


Re: To Believers
Hi Buz,
Buzsaw writes:
does not mean that God has purposely dispatched the Satan to deceive the world.
If that is not what his job is, what is his job?
Was Peter wrong when he said:
1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
But if his mission is other than deceiving all mankind into not accepting God's free full pardon, Why is God allowing so many to be deceived?
Enlighten me Brother.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Buzsaw, posted 02-06-2009 7:18 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by caldron68, posted 02-06-2009 10:13 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 139 by Buzsaw, posted 02-06-2009 11:02 PM ICANT has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 133 of 382 (497965)
02-06-2009 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by ICANT
02-06-2009 6:40 PM


Re: Almost there
Hi ICANT,
Because of that I rely on what the people in the know have to say to get my information from.
But, above all you would have to rely on your ability to understand what is being said, this, with a limited knowledge of the field - that both you and I share - could cause you to completely misunderstand what is being explained. But, you approach it the way you think is better.
Btw, I didn't know you were 69. I hope I make it to be that age, I really do. Seems like a cool experience. I have to slow down my life style if want to though.
oni do you believe in God. Your answer would be no.
I've never fully gotten into this on this forum. Yes I do consider myself an atheist, BUT, and this is the part that is important, ONLY when it pertains to the discription of God(s) that have been given in scriptual/religous texts.
I believe there is a driving force behind existance, of everything, not just a chosen few in a remote dessert. I believe that because we humans try so hard to have answers we just grasp at any and all answers that will satisfy the intitial curiosity and by doing so, man took what could have been an early assumtion of spirituality and turned it into the false religions that followed.
This however, would take the conversation into the driving force behind the rise of consciousness and what awareness of existance does and how it connects one with the universe, AND, would be completely off topic.
Long story short, Do I believe in God? Your version or that of any other religion/belief system that has ever existed, NO.
Do I believe there exists another force that might be considered God for lack of a better word? YES
oni why don't you believe in God? Your answer, well there is no empirical evidence for the existence of God.
We could go around and around and we would eventually get to the point you would say: Well science has empirical evidence and therefore is trust worthy where a belief in an imaginary being is stupid.
Well, one, there isn't any subjective evidence for the existance of God either, by my standards. For a subjective experience to ring true for me I would have to be the one experiencing it. I have never experienced it that is why I neither see objective evidence for God or subjective evidence for God.
But, contrary to what you think, I have never turned to science to prove or disprove God.
As it stands you think I am deceived because I believe in a faith based system which has no empirical evidence to support it.
I do not think you are deceived. You have faith in the Christian God. You believe this to be true. I have not argued against that.
And I believe you are deceived because you believe in an empirical evidence system which you can not produce empirical, testable evidence to reach a point that what you believe comes to be a fact.
Therefore you believe it by faith.
Again, ICANT, and I'd think you would have understood this by now, I have never asked for empirical evidence to prove or disprove God to me. God cannot be studied by science. Science cannot disprove or prove God. Understanding what theories are explaining neither makes one a believer or a disbeliever. So, no, empirical evidence is NOT what I seek.
The only one who has claimed deceit is you. You said you believe the devil is manipulating certain theories in science to deceive mankind and draw him away from Gods salvation. This is the very same argument used long ago when claiming the devil was deceiving man into trusting those theories. This method proved to not hold up when empirical evidence proved what was being claimed. Yet, they like you claimed it as FACT - you are not saying maybe the devil is deceiving us through science - you are saying he IS, period, no maybe at all. The bible doesn't say the devil will use scientific theories to deceive you. It just says that he will try to deceive you. By what method do you deduce that science is one of the avenues he has used to deceive...?
That is the question at hand here in this debate between you and I.
I simply said I believe the devil is using anything and everything to keep people from accepting God's offer of a free full pardon.
You want to play this game? Ok. Then what OTHER scientific theories are being used to decieve man. Anything and Everything, right? Name one other.
If you can't come up with another then why BB and evolution?

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by ICANT, posted 02-06-2009 6:40 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by ICANT, posted 02-06-2009 8:38 PM onifre has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 134 of 382 (497969)
02-06-2009 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by onifre
02-06-2009 6:00 PM


Re: Topic
Hi oni,
Ignorant is always a lack of knowledge for me. Stupid is foolish.
onifre writes:
I'm simply arguing against your position of science being manipulated by the devil for the purpose of deceit.
Well since you don't believe in the devil why would you even entertain the idea that the devil was using anything for the purpose of deceit?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by onifre, posted 02-06-2009 6:00 PM onifre has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 135 of 382 (497971)
02-06-2009 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by onifre
02-06-2009 7:49 PM


Re: Almost there
Hi oni,
onifre writes:
You want to play this game? Ok. Then what OTHER scientific theories are being used to decieve man. Anything and Everything, right? Name one other.
I do not know of another scientific one that is being discussed. But I do believe he is using Creationism to deceive people.
And as I said I believe he is using the church to deceive people.
He is using preachers to deceive people.
In fact he has got more churches and preachers than God has.
I tell my people not to believe a word I say unless they can find it in their Bible.
I could tell them a lie. Many preachers do.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by onifre, posted 02-06-2009 7:49 PM onifre has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by bluescat48, posted 02-06-2009 11:41 PM ICANT has replied

  
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