|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9163 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,415 Year: 3,672/9,624 Month: 543/974 Week: 156/276 Day: 30/23 Hour: 0/3 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Faith and belief - The Almighty God revealed through his grandness | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Huntard Member (Idle past 2316 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Peg writes:
You haven't seen god create life either, have you? Yet you believe that.... That's a bit contradictory if you ask me.... If you cannot be shown God, then he does not exist and you close your mind to it....well i do the same with abiogenesis. If you cannot show me abiogenesis in action, then i have no need to believe that it actually happened. I hunt for the truth
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: Creationism involves many cases of life coming from non-living matter - if it does not happen then creationism is false (and of course we have NEVER seen any examples of the divine creation of new species). And if life does not come from non-living matter then life must be eternal. Your response is self-contradictory and therefore false.
quote: ONE of the definitions. And one that should not be confused with the laws that we create to regulate our societies. Which is exactly what your argument does.
quote: Another self-contradiction. Natural laws are only "devised" in the sense that scientists produce them as DESCRIPTIONS of reality. That is obviously not what you meant. No, the confusion is very real and you cannot escape it, as shown by your failure to address my point.
quote: Again you do not address my point. You do not deal with the problem of causation without time, nor do you even try to show that the universe is an effect. (And Newton's Third Law is NOT "the law of cause and effect").
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Peg Member (Idle past 4950 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
Huntard writes: You haven't seen god create life either, have you? Yet you believe that.... That's a bit contradictory if you ask me.... the only contradiction is that those who proclaim Abiogenesis as the origin of life, something that cannot be seen, proven or repeated in a lab, actually believe it yet refuse to believe that an intelligent creator, one who has communicated and shown himself to mankind, could have been the source of life on earth. cant see God, therefore he doesnt exist cant see abiogenesis, cant prove it, cant duplicate it, but it happened because life exists therfore abiogeneis exists. now thats contradictory!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Peg Member (Idle past 4950 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
PaulK writes: Creationism involves many cases of life coming from non-living matter - if it does not happen then creationism is false (and of course we have NEVER seen any examples of the divine creation of new species). And if life does not come from non-living matter then life must be eternal. Your response is self-contradictory and therefore false. i dont know where you get the idea that life must have been eternal what life are you refering to??? human life? animal life? plant life??? what 'must' have been eternally living???
Paulk writes: Natural laws are only "devised" in the sense that scientists produce them as DESCRIPTIONS of reality. That is obviously not what you meant. Of course i didnt mean scientists devised them... scientists merely describe the effect of natural laws...they certainly cannot change them nor alter them.Natural laws are evidence of a supreme being who put these laws in place. PaulK writes: You do not deal with the problem of causation without time, nor do you even try to show that the universe is an effect. an eternal being IS without time and the universe is an effect because it is material, as opposed to God who is spirit.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Huntard Member (Idle past 2316 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Peg writes:
Yet you believe god created it, something that has never been seen, cannot be proven, or repeated in a lab. the only contradiction is that those who proclaim Abiogenesis as the origin of life, something that cannot be seen, proven or repeated in a lab, actually believe it Oh, and abiogenesis CAN be proven, we haven't done so just yet. Which is why I take the position of "I don't know where the first life came from".
yet refuse to believe that an intelligent creator, one who has communicated and shown himself to mankind, could have been the source of life on earth.
This intelligent creator has NEVER been seen. He has also NEVER been observed to create life. I hunt for the truth
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: Because if life only comes FROM life there cannot be any time when there is no life. Unless there isn't any life anywhere. It necessarily follows from your argument.
quote: That's the only way in which we know that natural laws are devised.
quote: I've already given good reasons why they are not. You've given no reasons why they are.
quote: An assertion that does not address the issue.
quote: SImply making bizarre assertions to support points may work in creationist circles, but not in discussions with people who care about the truth.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Nighttrain Member (Idle past 4014 days) Posts: 1512 From: brisbane,australia Joined: |
Wonder what happened to the OP`s author with his evidence of God`s 'grandeur and love'?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Larni Member (Idle past 185 days) Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
because he is the cause? Please don't portray yourself as denser than I believe you to be. This is infinite regression that you are only too well aware of. You have been caught out and you only option now is special pleading. Deal.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3122 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: |
Peg writes: Myself writes: However, Jesus does not obey all the laws originally given by his himself, the Father and the Holy Spirit (as part of the Trinity he was present at the beginning of the universe and during the presentation of the Law to Moses) and in facts blatantly violates several of them. what laws did Jesus violate? How about this one for a start: 1. The law in Deuteronomy 22:20-21 states:
Deuteronomy 22:20-24 writes: But if this charge is true, that the girl was not found a virgin. , then they shall bring out the girl to the doorway of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death. because she has committed an act of folly in Israel by playing the harlot in her father's house; thus . you shall purge the evil from among you. If a man is found lying with a married woman, then both of them shall die, the man who lay with the woman, and the woman; thus you shall purge the evil from Israel. If there is a girl who is a virgin engaged to a man, and another man finds her in the city and lies with her, then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city and you shall stone them to death; the girl, because she did not cry out in the city, and the man, because he has violated his neighbor's wife. Thus you shall purge the evil from among you. In John 8:3-11 Jesus blatantly ignores these previous COMMANDS BY GOD given to Moses stating that adultery will be punished by stoning and tells the Pharasees and Scribes "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." and they all leave. BTW, I applaud Jesus for violating these rules as a man since I consider many of these rules inane, ignorant and morally bankrupt in the first place. But as a divine being and one of the ones who supposedly disseminated the rules in the first place, this would by considered "do as I say, not as I do" i.e. hypocricy by anyone intelligent person's rational standards. There are several more examples but i.e. breaking the Sabbath, prescriptions on hygiene, etc. but will not go into them for sake of brevity. Again, I have no problem with this on a human level, but as God why would he disobey his own laws in the first place. Why not set clear cut humane laws that would not cause modern humans to have to rationalize away or cherry pick verses to make them fit our more humane and fair moral systems that we live by today. To me it is speaks volumes of the moral inconsistency between the OT and the NT and the desire for religious fundamentalists to try to hold onto what ever scraps of there religion they have left. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given. For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 104 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
Devil writes:
Again, I have no problem with this on a human level, but as God why would he disobey his own laws in the first place. Why not set clear cut humane laws that would not cause modern humans to have to rationalize away or cherry pick verses to make them fit our more humane and fair moral systems that we live by today. . To me it is speaks volumes of the moral inconsistency between the OT and the NT and the desire for religious fundamentalists to try to hold onto what ever scraps of there religion they have left Its good to see you again my ole Naval friend, or should I callyou Lord Helment (Dark Helment} from somewhere in the Ford Galaxy, I just love using that line from spaceballs. Rick Moranes is a straight crack up, his part in that movie is priceless. But then I was always very easy to impress. Then ofcourse there is "Yogart", the "everlasting know it all", or Cavediver, which ever is easier, ha ha. Just kidding CD, dont have a anurism. Anywho let me address you latest comments concerning Jesus' actions that you have described as unlawful.In Matt 12:1-21 I think you will find the answers you are looking.
1. At that season Jesus went on the sabbath day through the grainfields; and his disciples were hungry and began to pluck ears and to eat. 2. But the Pharisees, when they saw it, said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which it is not lawful to do upon the sabbath. 3. But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was hungry, and they that were with him; 4. how he entered into the house of God, and ate the showbread, which it was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them that were with him, but only for the priests? 5. Or have ye not read in the law, that on the sabbath day the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are guiltless? 6. But I say unto you, that one greater than the temple is here. 7. But if ye had known what this meaneth, I desire mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. 8. For the Son of man is lord of the sabbath. 9. And he departed thence, and went into their synagogue: 10. and behold, a man having a withered hand. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day? that they might accuse him. 11. And he said unto them, What man shall there be of you, that shall have one sheep, and if this fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? 12. How much then is a man of more value than a sheep! Wherefore it is lawful to do good on the sabbath day. 13. Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thy hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, as the other. 14. But the Pharisees went out, and took counsel against him, how they might destroy him. 15. And Jesus perceiving `it' withdrew from thence: and many followed him; and he healed them all, 16. and charged them that they should not make him known: 17. that it might be fulfilled which was spoken through Isaiah the prophet, saying, 18. Behold, my servant whom I have chosen; My beloved in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my Spirit upon him, And he shall declare judgment to the Gentiles. 19. He shall not strive, nor cry aloud; Neither shall any one hear his voice in the streets. 20. A bruised reed shall he not break, And smoking flax shall he not quench, Till he send forth judgment unto victory. 21. And in his name shall the Gentiles hope. It should be remembered in this context that while Jesus was in full human form, he never ceased to be the immortal God in any respect. "let this mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus, who being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but made of himself no reputation and humbled himself and was found in fashion of a servant and he became obedient even unto death" "In him dwelt all the fulness of the Godhead, bodily" That is while in the flesh he was fully God. "The Son of man is lord of the sabbath", "But I say unto you there is one greater than the temple here", "Before Abraham was, I Am In these passages he makes it very clear that God or the son of man is Lord of the Sabbath. As God he can adjust a law that he has made to to demonstrate another moral point, without contradiction. As to this point he makes it clear that he "desires mercy rather than sacrifice". In this instance he was demonstrating a higher principle It should be noted that these laws were made for man not God and there can be no contradiction in his actions. In a will or a testament the arbitrator of the will may change or adjust that as he sees fit during his life. Hebrews 9. The Old Law or testament was Gods laws and wishes in this connection and as an objective moral standard his decisions and wishes apply to man. It is true in this instance that had Jesus (God) not been present, they would have been justified in carryng out the Law. However, Jesus knowing thier hearts and that thier deisres were not to fulfill Gods wishes, he desired to point out a higher principleand to display what thier actual intentions actually were. He then reinforces the his point by stating that the Son of man is Lord of the Sabbath. In the instance in John 8, the same principle would apply. Jesus is not ignoring or disobeying the Law, he is the Lord of the laws. To corroborate the point that only God has a right to pass judgement on man, he reinforces his point by stating "let HE that is without sin among you cast the first stone." He knew there intentions here were one of piety and not a desire to fulfill Gods law, as a result he used the situation to demonstrate a higher principle. He did it by being the author of the Law in the first place and demonstrated further his deity, over man and our perceptions of subjective moral standards. He closes the door in this situation and the one in John chapter 8 on who and what he is in this respect. It is no different than the instance, when he was challenged about telling a man his sins were forgiven after he had healed him. With one simple line he quited them by asking, "Which is easier to do, tell the man to rise up and walk or tell him his sins are forgiven" In other words, dont both actions demonstrate who and what I AM. What seems like a contradiction or contradictory actions is easily understandable, when it is taken in context and in its entirity. There were times when Jesus (God) corrected misunderstandings about the Sabbath, Law and Sin, then there were times he set the sentence aside to demonstrate a higher principle. But then ONLY God can do this correct, so there is no immediate contradiction or MORAL INCONSISTENCIES, correct once again? One might as well try and condemn Gods action in Cannan, concerning certain actions with some verses his mercy with others. He can only know what is RIGHT, MORAL AND JUST.
To me it is speaks volumes of the moral inconsistency between the OT and the NT and the desire for religious fundamentalists to try to hold onto what ever scraps of there religion they have left. Thus, with a simple explanation and a little contextual and total scriptural perspective, your whole assertion and contention falls to the ground, like a house of cards, DA. If a man wants to complain about the God of the Bible and his actions, atleast let him understand what the Bible has to say in its entirity about that God. D Bertot Edited by Bertot, : No reason given. Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
onifre Member (Idle past 2972 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
If a man wants to complain about the God of the Bible and his actions, atleast let him understand what the Bible has to say in its entirity about that God. There is a cleasr inconsistency between the moral actions of the God of the OT and the God of the NT, whether or not it was OK for God to be inconsistent does not take away the inconsistancy. We know the bible claims that God...
Bertot writes: only know what is RIGHT, MORAL AND JUST. But, the only people who believe that are believers of that particular God. So, to you what he writes is not inconsistent because, as you claim, he can do as he pleases. But, to us there is no such person to be able to desolve the inconsistencies so, when comparing the the 2 texts as a nonbeliever, it is inconsistent. Like the inconsistencies that Christians find in other religions texts. The inconsistencies would be removed by those Gods being able to do as the please also, but when you read it you can still clearly see the inconsistencies in the texts. "I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks "I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Peg Member (Idle past 4950 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
cause and effect baby
life exists therefore something must have created it
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Huntard Member (Idle past 2316 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Peg writes: cause and effect babylife exists therefore something must have created it Cause and effect baby, life exists, therefore it must have generated through chemistry. See what I did there? Edited by Huntard, : quotebox error I hunt for the truth
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
bluescat48 Member (Idle past 4210 days) Posts: 2347 From: United States Joined: |
life exists therefore something must have created it or life developed naturally. Since there is very little evidence of either then we get no-where arguing the matter. The point is that searching for evidence is the proper method not simply accepting writings from the bronze age. There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002 Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Peg Member (Idle past 4950 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
PaulK writes: Because if life only comes FROM life there cannot be any time when there is no life. Unless there isn't any life anywhere. It necessarily follows from your argument. yes ok, you're right if God didnt make life on earth, then it must have always been here. However we know that it hasnt always been here as Rahvin pointed out. That can only lead us to Abiogenesis... which cannot be proved, cannot be replicated, cannot be observed and therefore there is no evidence for it. i love circular arguments.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024