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Author Topic:   Nonsensical Atheists? Agobot?
Huntard
Member (Idle past 376 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 46 of 48 (497706)
02-05-2009 5:15 PM


Short recap
Well, this thread has gone a short time now, so I thought I'd do a short recap.

When Agobot accused "atheists" of speaking nonsense, I became intrigued. I've known atheists on this board to be quite rational people, and while I may disagree with their opinions (not on the atheist part, mind you :) ), I've not really ever seen one say something that I would say is "nonsense".

That's why I started this thread, to see if he could back his claim up.

So far, Agobot, I must say I'm a bit disappointed. You provided the example of the atoms, yet I (and many others) don't see this as nonsense. It could be that there is a language problem, but so far (seeing as he seems to be able to write English very well) I don't see any evidence for it.

So, is there any other "nonsense" you can point us to, Agobot, or is this atoms example the best you could find?


I hunt for the truth
Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Percy, posted 02-06-2009 8:29 AM Huntard has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18313
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 47 of 48 (497830)
02-06-2009 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Huntard
02-05-2009 5:15 PM


Re: Short recap
Huntard writes:

It could be that there is a language problem, but so far (seeing as he seems to be able to write English very well) I don't see any evidence for it.

My own opinion is that there's something seriously wrong somewhere because even relatively simple points aren't being understood, but leaving that aside, I've seen accusations of lies and so forth flying around a little, so even though I'm not playing the role of moderator in this thread I thought I'd caution people to not set their expectations too high or take discussion here too seriously. For whatever reason, many arguments just aren't being understood, and there's no way to force comprehension. If it helps, write for the lurkers.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Huntard, posted 02-05-2009 5:15 PM Huntard has not yet responded

    
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1182 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 48 of 48 (498027)
02-07-2009 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Agobot
02-05-2009 11:51 AM


Agobot,

At the atomic and molecular level, atoms and molecules in a living organism or component of a living organism i.e. a cell may or may not be ARRANGED in different ways than that of a non living thing i.e. a rock.

It is the arrangement and composition of these atoms that differentiates between life and nonlife. That is certain arrangements and composition of individual atoms into organic molecules and those organic molecules into a collective living organism that inhibits certain characteristics i.e. transformation of energy from one type into another, self-replication, etc that distinguishes living organisms from non-living things. However, the individual atoms themselves of living organisms i.e. a human are indistinguishable from those of individual atoms in a nonliving object i.e. a rock. The arrangement (i.e. organic molecules) and composition (i.e. 65% hydrogen/25% oxygen/10% carbon) of these atoms may be different but if scientists took one oxygen atom from a human and one from a rock and looked at them through an atomic force micrscope (which really can see individual atoms), they would see no difference between the two.

For example, take DNA. DNA (will disregard the protiens that help curl and compact DNA for simplicity) is comprised of nucleaic acid, phosphates, sugar, and protien molecules. Broken down even further these molecules are comprised of Carbon, Nitrogen, Hydrogen, Oxygen, Phospherus atoms.

So here are a couple of questions for you, Agobot:

1. Can organic molecules i.e. nucleic acids, phosophate, sugar, and protiens be found in non-living things?
2. If so do the individual atoms of these organic molecules look or behave any differently in "living" organisms i.e. amino acids in a cell than in "nonliving" objects i.e. amino acids synthesized in a lab?
3. At the atomic level what is the difference between life and nonlife?

Furthermore, at the quantum level (below the atomic level) the behavior of "particles" and forces i.e. quarks, gluons, electrons, etc. are indistinguishable in a living organism and a non-living object. Would you not agree? Would an up quark behave any different in a proton of a rock than in a proton of a red blood cell?

If you can prove this is not so, I will relinquish to say this is rubbish and nonsense. Otherwise I would say your are full of shit.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan
This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Agobot, posted 02-05-2009 11:51 AM Agobot has not yet responded

  
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