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Author Topic:   I Am Not An Atheist!
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 166 of 382 (498112)
02-08-2009 5:41 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by Buzsaw
02-07-2009 8:32 PM


Re: To Believers
Buzsaw writes:
Percy writes:
Even God in the Bible acknowledged that he is not the only God when he advised in his first commandment to Moses that the Jews must hold no gods more dear than him.
These are a few examples of scriptures which claim there is one god...etc...
Yes, I'm well aware your scriptures claim both that there are many Gods and that there is one God. A contradiction. There goes inerrancy.
These were were either man crafted idols or named gods and goddesses...
All gods are "man crafted".
I am not aware of any Biblical references of named angels as such which Israel or pagan cultures worshiped as gods.
I didn't say you worshiped angels or devils. I said you believed in them. You believe in a host of supernatural beings who interfere in the affairs of men, just as the ancient Greeks believed. That you've chosen to worship only one of these supernatural beings is beside the point, and it's also the same as many ancient Greeks, who often chose to worship only one of the many gods. After all, so many gods, so little time, you know how it is.
It appears that I'm not going to convince you of anything, Percy. I've been wondering what sort of a deist you were. Perhaps I'm beginning to understand.
No, Buz, you're not beginning to understand what sort of deist I am, because it's obvious you don't know the meaning of the word "deism". Here's the definition from Answers.com:
de·ism (d'z'm, d'-)
n.
The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.
Gee, what do you know, I'm a mainstream right down the middle-of-the-road deist! What, Buz, did you think deism was some kind of semi-mainstream religious sect?
Deism is a bit more varied than this simple dictionary definition hints at, but it's good enough for our purposes.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Buzsaw, posted 02-07-2009 8:32 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 167 of 382 (498117)
02-08-2009 6:01 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Buzsaw
02-07-2009 9:10 PM


Re: Harmful Doctrine
2. If atheism is truth, which most agree is not the case, you still do them harm. See #1
Mod's parody was about belief in Zeus, Hercules and so forth, not atheism.
At least the New Testament religion ICANT is teaching is based on a book which is undergirded by a reasonable amount of evidence.
There's no more evidence for your God than for Zeus.
Many here (but not me, at least not generally) see the inculcation of religious beliefs in children as harmful, and apparently you agree, except when it comes to your own religion. Why am I not surprised?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Buzsaw, posted 02-07-2009 9:10 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 168 of 382 (498119)
02-08-2009 6:42 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Buzsaw
02-07-2009 9:10 PM


Re: Harmful Doctrine
Some pagan religions required the passing of children through fire and human sacrifice.
You set it up, I am merely knocking it down. So here goes.
Some Abrahamic religions require being tortured in permanent fire unless a person accepts the validity of a specific human sacrifice.
Anyway, your post highlights something that interests me enough that I tried to find a way to make it on topic. I went to Exhibition Islam when it came to Manchester. Some of the exhibits were rather fascinating, old Qur'ans, and various things from Islamic history including old scientific equipment and of course I had the chance to speak with an Imam and a variety of Muslims while in a Mosque.
They sound exactly like Christian apologists. They claim to have the superior evidence, they claim they can prove the Qur'an is the word of God and so on and so forth. The standard of their evidence for these claims is the same as the kinds of evidence I've seen Christian apologetics come up with their own beliefs. Archaeology, writing style, accurate scientific claims being made centuries before science made them and so on and so forth.
What strikes me is that when the other religion does it, its deceptive mush. When the religion that you just happen to believe is true does it - you could be saving the very souls of children so it is justified even if it turns out to be false.
This strikes me as a similar, perhaps related though not identical, kind of mindset that is required to believe that evolution and the devil might be connected in some way or that any science that contradicts the plain reading of a religious claim must be something to do with 'atheists'.
Naturally, you will say something like 'but my evidence is better!', but really Buz - I have no stake in whose evidence is 'better' whereas you clearly do. And both have appalling standards of evidence that don't lead to the conclusions that those that tout those evidences are trying to make us believe they do. Naturally you will protest, but so do they.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Buzsaw, posted 02-07-2009 9:10 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Percy, posted 02-08-2009 7:19 AM Modulous has seen this message but not replied
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 169 of 382 (498121)
02-08-2009 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Modulous
02-08-2009 6:42 AM


Re: Harmful Doctrine
A fantasy of mine is that the world's religions should hold a conference where they hash out which is the one, right and true religion. Once they reach agreement they can get back to us about their position on evolution, the Big Bang and such.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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zern
Junior Member (Idle past 5522 days)
Posts: 3
From: Scotland, UK
Joined: 01-20-2009


Message 170 of 382 (498133)
02-08-2009 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by Percy
02-08-2009 7:19 AM


Re: Harmful Doctrine
That reminds me of a program i watched about Jesus as portrayed in the Islamic scriptures, you had an Imam telling the story of Mary (no Joseph) bearing Jesus in the wilderness and his first miracle was when he began preaching as one year old infant.
Cut to an Anglican Bishop who said (without the merest hint of irony);
'Well thats just a load of religious fantasy.'

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 Message 169 by Percy, posted 02-08-2009 7:19 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 171 of 382 (498140)
02-08-2009 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Percy
02-08-2009 7:19 AM


Re: Harmful Doctrine
A fantasy of mine is that the world's religions should hold a conference where they hash out which is the one, right and true religion. Once they reach agreement they can get back to us about their position on evolution, the Big Bang and such.
--Percy
What do you want a "miracle?" Sounds like World War III.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 172 of 382 (498146)
02-08-2009 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Percy
02-06-2009 9:40 AM


The question under consideration is, "How many supernatural beings do Christians believe in?" Man isn't a supernatural being.
Okay.
That God creates being A and places him in the supernatural realm and creates being B and places him in the natural realm doesn't render either being God.
-
So if the Father, Son, Holy Ghost and angels are actually just one collective being known as God, and if that were the only supernatural being Christians believed in, then it could be argued that Christians believe in one God.
I wasn't aware of the view that constituted angels as a part of God. I was under the impression that they belong to the created order just like us...and satan.
-
But Satan is another supernatural being independent of God's will in whose existence Christians also believe. That's two gods.
That he is supernatural doesn't render him God - it merely identifies the realm he occupies. That he is independent of Gods will doesn't render him God either - anymore than humans being independent of God's will render them God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Percy, posted 02-06-2009 9:40 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Straggler, posted 02-08-2009 4:13 PM iano has replied
 Message 176 by Percy, posted 02-08-2009 7:54 PM iano has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 173 of 382 (498149)
02-08-2009 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by iano
02-08-2009 3:50 PM


God and god
If your faith stipulates that there is one true God then by definition any other supernatural beings, no matter how powerful, are not God.
However by the measure of any polytheistic religion Satan would seem to qualify as a god by most criteria.
In these terms Christians are effectively monolatrists who choose to worship one god from the multiple (well...OK, two) options available.
Satanists would, in these terms, also be monolatrists.
Thus Christians who believe in Satan as well as God are polytheists (maybe we need to introduce the term bi-theist) in that they believe in the existence of, and associated mythology and rituals pertaining to, more than one god.
No?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by iano, posted 02-08-2009 3:50 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by iano, posted 02-08-2009 7:04 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 177 by Percy, posted 02-08-2009 7:56 PM Straggler has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 174 of 382 (498163)
02-08-2009 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by ICANT
02-07-2009 12:25 PM


ICANT writes:
quote:
So what damage do I do if I tell them God loves them and His only begotten son died for them and if they would believe in Him that He would give them a wonderful life with Him in a place called heaven one day?
Now if I am wrong and there is no God, Jesus, heaven or lake of fire and they live a happy, fulfilled, contented life helping all those they can and harming no one along the way.
When they die they are buried and then nothing.
Please explain the damage I have caused to them.
Be specific.
BZZZZT!
Pascal's Wager. I'm so sorry, ICANT. Johnny, tell him what parting gifts he has!
Well, Bob, ICANT has won himself a lifetime of anguish in someone else's hell! Yes, that's right. After spending all of his life fighting against Satan and worshipping the Christian god, ICANT gets a reward of going straight to Hades for his hubris. He'll be sentenced to solve a series of puzzles for which the instructions can be read in many ways. Every attempt to glean more information will be met with "Since it would just be a waste of my time to tell you, I won't." Of course, every proposed solution will conflict with something in the contradictory instructions. This being for his continued insistence that those around him are unworthy of explanations.
But, he won't get hungry because he'll have an afterlife-time supply of Rice-a-Roni®, the San Francisco Treat.
You didn't really think that the god that truly exists was the Christian one, did you? What damage do you do? You condemn them to enternal damnation and suffering for believing in the wrong god.
quote:
If you are wrong when you tell your children there is no God, Jesus, heaven or lake of fire and they live a happy, fulfilled, contented life helping all those they can and harming no one along the way.
When they die they find themselves facing Jesus and He says to them depart ye into everlasting punishment I never knew you.
BZZZZT!
Pascal's Wager again! I'm so sorry, ICANT. You seem to think that you know the mind of god and Jesus and are capable of speaking for them regarding how they will react to those who do not believe.
Hint: Jesus directly stated that salvation is through works, not faith. It is Paul who claimed it was via faith, not works.
Who do you think better knows the mind of Jesus: Jesus or Paul?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 175 of 382 (498164)
02-08-2009 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Straggler
02-08-2009 4:13 PM


Re: God and god
Straggler writes:
If your faith stipulates that there is one true God then by definition any other supernatural beings, no matter how powerful, are not God.
That's not the definition I'm using. The definition I'm using is that God created us and angels - incl. satan.
However by the measure of any polytheistic religion Satan would seem to qualify as a god by most criteria.
It would depend very much on the criteria of course.
If the measure of God is that he isn't created, then satan can't be a god. Percy seemed to be proposing that Christians need suppose satan as God - simply by believing he, satan, exists.
No?
Thus not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Straggler, posted 02-08-2009 4:13 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 176 of 382 (498170)
02-08-2009 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by iano
02-08-2009 3:50 PM


iano writes:
That God creates being A and places him in the supernatural realm and creates being B and places him in the natural realm doesn't render either being God.
I didn't say that it did. That Christians give their panoply of gods different names than the ancient Greeks is mere vocabulary. The fact of the matter is that Christians, just like ancient pagans, believe in many supernatural beings who interfere in the affairs of men. There's one who they worship, a number whom they respect, and one who they fear.
iano writes:
I wasn't aware of the view that constituted angels as a part of God. I was under the impression that they belong to the created order just like us...and satan.
What? You haven't been paying attention to the preachings in this very thread of the Right Reverand ICANT?
Hey, look Iano, if you want to be skeptical of all this stuff then I'm right there with you, but only if you treat your own views to the same skepticism, okay? You and ICANT and Buzsaw each reject the others' views, and the rest of us here reject them all.
ICANT's solution to the multiple gods problem of Christianity is that angels and devils are just alternate manifestations of the one true God. If you believe that ICANT has no material evidence for his views on Gods and devils, but that you do have such evidence for your own views, then you two are just opposite sides of the same deluded coin. You can't all be right, and given the lack of any real evidence it is very likely that any conclusions any of you draw will be wrong and lack any correspondence to reality whatsoever.
But hey, if you and ICANT and Buzsaw *do* reach a consensus, then all you have left to do is reach a consensus with the rest of the Christian world. And once you achieve that, then you have to reach a consensus with the Jews, the Moslems, the Hindus, the Buddhists, and so on. When that's all done, then come back and tell us what the final word is on God, gods, angels and devils.
In the meantime, back here in reality, we'll just go with what the evidence tells us.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by iano, posted 02-08-2009 3:50 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by iano, posted 02-08-2009 8:19 PM Percy has replied
 Message 195 by ICANT, posted 02-09-2009 3:43 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 177 of 382 (498171)
02-08-2009 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Straggler
02-08-2009 4:13 PM


Re: God and god
Straggler writes:
Thus Christians who believe in Satan as well as God are polytheists (maybe we need to introduce the term bi-theist) in that they believe in the existence of, and associated mythology and rituals pertaining to, more than one god.
The way I've been saying this is that Christians *believe* in both God and Satan, but they only worship God. "God" is the name they give to the god that they worship. "Satan" is the name they give to the god that they fear.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 178 of 382 (498174)
02-08-2009 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by iano
02-08-2009 7:04 PM


Re: God and god
iano writes:
If the measure of God is that he isn't created, then satan can't be a god.
Here's the operative definition from yourdictionary.com:
god (gd, gd)
noun
any of various beings conceived of as supernatural, immortal, and having special powers over the lives and affairs of people and the course of nature; deity, esp. a male deity: typically considered objects of worship
Satan is a god.
Percy seemed to be proposing that Christians need suppose satan as God - simply by believing he, satan, exists.
No, once again, I never said that Satan was (capital G) God. I said that Satan was one of the gods in whom Christians believe. I didn't say they worship Satan, though I suppose some do, only that they believed in him, meaning that they believe he exists, in the same way they believe God exists. It just so happens that Christians think so much of the god known as God that they worship him, as opposed to the god known as Satan who they fear.
I know I must have said the same thing a number of times now, sorry to be so repetitive, but this is the third time you've repeated that I said Christians believe Satan is God when I didn't say that. It is ICANT who believes Satan is a manifestation of God and not an independent entity. Work it out with him.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 179 of 382 (498175)
02-08-2009 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Percy
02-08-2009 7:54 PM


I didn't say that it did. That Christians give their panoply of gods different names than the ancient Greeks is mere vocabulary. The fact of the matter is that Christians, just like ancient pagans, believe in many supernatural beings who interfere in the affairs of men. There's one who they worship, a number whom they respect, and one who they fear.
But there is no panapoly (whatever that is) of Gods in Christianity. There's God and there's gods. One wouldn't imagine so much significance in the capitalization of a letter - but there you have it.
I'm not sure that satan is a god by the biblical definition. By that account he's to be destroyed - which might well mean end of existance. In biblical terms he's that which lies behind the myriad of gods thus far identifed: money, diana, etc
What? You haven't been paying attention to the preachings in this very thread of the Right Reverand ICANT?
I've been nabbed!!
ICANT's solution to the multiple gods problem of Christianity is that angels and devils are just alternate manifestations of the one true God.
Forgive me if I don't trawl back but what was the problem in the first place? One that required this rather unusual solution?
-
If you believe that ICANT has no material evidence for his views on Gods and devils, but that you do have such evidence for your own views, then you two are just opposite sides of the same deluded coin. You can't all be right, and given the lack of any real evidence it is very likely that any conclusions any of you draw will be wrong and lack any correspondence to reality whatsoever.
I wouldn't dream of asserting material evidence for my view - to do such a thing would completely circumvent the biblical notion of faith - which doesn't involve material evidence.
"ICANT!!! WHAT ON EARTH HAVE YOU BEEN TELLING FOLK DOWN HERE??"
-
In the meantime, back here in reality, we'll just go with what the evidence tells us.
Speaking of which; what material evidence is there for your deist viewpoint?
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Percy, posted 02-08-2009 7:54 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Percy, posted 02-09-2009 7:01 AM iano has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 180 of 382 (498177)
02-08-2009 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Modulous
02-08-2009 6:42 AM


Re: Harmful Doctrine
Modulous writes:
Some Abrahamic religions require being tortured in permanent fire unless a person accepts the validity of a specific human sacrifice.
This is a strawman. Abrahamic religions do no such thing. They teach that if one does not receive the sacrifice, in their afterlife God will do something to them. There's a huge difference in teaching fiery stuff and actually requiring theburning of living men women and children as sacrifices here in this life as some pagan religions did.
Anyway, your post highlights something that interests me enough that I tried to find a way to make it on topic. I went to Exhibition Islam when it came to Manchester. Some of the exhibits were rather fascinating, old Qur'ans, and various things from Islamic history including old scientific equipment and of course I had the chance to speak with an Imam and a variety of Muslims while in a Mosque.
They sound exactly like Christian apologists. They claim to have the superior evidence, they claim they can prove the Qur'an is the word of God and so on and so forth. The standard of their evidence for these claims is the same as the kinds of evidence I've seen Christian apologetics come up with their own beliefs. Archeology, writing style, accurate scientific claims being made centuries before science made them and so on and so forth.
What strikes me is that when the other religion does it, its deceptive mush. When the religion that you just happen to believe is true does it - you could be saving the very souls of children so it is justified even if it turns out to be false.
This strikes me as a similar, perhaps related though not identical, kind of mindset that is required to believe that evolution and the devil might be connected in some way or that any science that contradicts the plain reading of a religious claim must be something to do with 'atheists'.
Naturally, you will say something like 'but my evidence is better!', but really Buz - I have no stake in whose evidence is 'better' whereas you clearly do. And both have appalling standards of evidence that don't lead to the conclusions that those that tout those evidences are trying to make us believe they do. Naturally you will protest, but so do they.
Modulous, there are no significant fulfilled prophecies in any of the Islamic scriptures which are the Haddith, the Sunnas and the Koran. There are no archaeological significant evidences to show that the Islamic Allah rendition of a god is true and no evidence that Islamic doctrines produce free, prosperous and productive cultures etc. Islamic scriptures have produced no evidence of anything before the 6th Century, AD. All there is before this are distorted renditions of data relative to the Biblical record, i.e. Johnny come lately bare assertions. Those scriptures are all bare assertions. Some of the scriptures in the Biblical record have significant evidence to support them.
The Biblical record wins hands down relative to evidence pertaining to the above. It is fool heartedly of you to try to compare these two religions. You're either showing your ignorance or doggedly denying cited evidences relative to the Biblical record which have been cited over the years here at EvC.
How about you doing a thread on the so called evidences of Islam which you were allegedly apprised of by your visit to the Mosque?
Edited by Buzsaw, : clarify wording in my first paragraph.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Modulous, posted 02-08-2009 6:42 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
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