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Author Topic:   Faith and belief - The Almighty God revealed through his grandness
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 166 of 224 (498184)
02-08-2009 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by bluescat48
02-08-2009 6:01 AM


Isaiah was written during the reign of Uzziah, who began to rule in 829BCE, and he continued to be a prohet into the time of Hezekiah’s reign because Isiah writes about an incident that took place in Hezekiahs '14th year' which was in 742BCE.
There are references that help to date the book for example Isaiah 14:28 dates a pronouncement concerning Philistia “in the year that King Ahaz died,” which would be 746BCE.
and Daniel wrote his prophecies whilst he was a captive in Babylon under Nebuchadnezzar and Belshazzar of the Medo Persian empire...they ruled 607 B.C.E to around about 536 BCE
Daniel became a government official of Medo Persia.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by bluescat48, posted 02-08-2009 6:01 AM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by bluescat48, posted 02-08-2009 11:17 PM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 167 of 224 (498185)
02-08-2009 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Huntard
02-08-2009 5:57 AM


Mohammad is a well documented historical figure
the fact that they believe he was sent by God is irrelevant
you asked if i believe in islam, yes i do. Of course Islam have a founder and their history can be traced.
its the same with Christianity...they have a founder and their history can be traced... whether one believes Jesus was the messiah or not is irrelevant

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Huntard, posted 02-08-2009 5:57 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 168 of 224 (498186)
02-08-2009 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Peg
02-08-2009 10:15 PM


Studies have shown that Isaiah was written in the 4th century BCE & Daniel in thew 2d or 3rd century BCE. It is also thought that the compilation of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers,Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, i & 2 Samuel and 1 & 2 Kings & 1 & 2 Chronicles were finally compiled during the Babylonian captivity, compiling the Jawist, Eloist & Priestly sources together & adding the deuteronomic books to complete the scripture as far a 1 & 2 Chronicles except the last verse of 2 Chronicles which is the same as the first verse of Ezra so as not to end the scripture on a down. The Jawist were written about 950 BCE, Eloist about 850BCE & the priestly after the fall of the Northern Kingdom. You make the same mistake many make in assuming the books were written by the central Character.
Edited by bluescat48, : added line

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Peg, posted 02-08-2009 10:15 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 169 of 224 (498187)
02-08-2009 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by bluescat48
02-08-2009 11:17 PM


hi bluescat48,
what studies have shown that isaiah was written in the 4th century and Daniel in the 2nd/3rd?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by bluescat48, posted 02-08-2009 11:17 PM bluescat48 has replied

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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 170 of 224 (498191)
02-09-2009 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cedre
02-04-2009 3:19 AM


In this thread my only hope and objective is to reveal the love of God through his grand ways. By the time this thread has lived up to its goal all will be in awe of his grandeur and nobility but most importantly his LOVE for humanity.
LOL. You people still exist?

You've been Gremled!

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 Message 1 by Cedre, posted 02-04-2009 3:19 AM Cedre has not replied

Cedre
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 171 of 224 (498193)
02-09-2009 1:09 AM


Re: Everyone
I'm glad that I have managed to drum up so many people together to talk about God. You see folks whether you're practice is, Bahaism Brahmanism, Buddhism, cultus, occultism or even atheism fact is we're all inspired to talk about God, why because deep-down it bothers all of us. God breathed a piece of himself into our DNA, that is why all peoples, tribes and nations the world around have a form of Godly worship or acknolwdge God in some manner, whether through idol worship, spirit worship, angel worship, or evolution worship. cool My God lives forevermore.
Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Huntard, posted 02-09-2009 1:44 AM Cedre has replied

Cedre
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 172 of 224 (498195)
02-09-2009 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by Peg
02-08-2009 11:52 PM


Re: Peg
Dear Peg I'm glad to see that you hold the fort so well each time whilst I'm away unbending my taut fingers. You know folks chatting is alright and all, but you gotta say no at some point, it's your body's folks let them breathe habitually.
Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Peg, posted 02-08-2009 11:52 PM Peg has not replied

Cedre
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 173 of 224 (498198)
02-09-2009 1:44 AM


Re: Deity of Christ
Dear Peg, I'm glad you're a christian. However I'll have to disagree with your statement that the bible is at odds with the teaching that Jesus is God himself as believed and upheld by the church. This is not an obscure teaching in the bible in fact it is clear-cut and straightforward, and any earnest learner of the word will him/herself soon arrive at the same conclusion. See Joh 1:1; Col 2:9; Joh 10:30; Heb 1:3. The above are just some of the versus that talk about the issue of Christ's divinty.

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Peg, posted 02-09-2009 3:00 AM Cedre has replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 174 of 224 (498199)
02-09-2009 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Cedre
02-09-2009 1:09 AM


Re: Everyone
Cedre writes:
You see folks whether you're practice is, Bahaism Brahmanism, Buddhism, cultus, occultism or even atheism fact is we're all inspired to talk about God, why because deep-down it bothers all of us.
no it doesn't, I'd just as well talk about Allah, Vishnu, Odin, or the flying spaghetti monster to people who really hold those irrational believes. The fact I'm talking about god with you and others here is because I was brought up in the Christian part of the world, not because it bothers me.
God breathed a piece of himself into our DNA, that is why all peoples, tribes and nations the world around have a form of Godly worship or acknolwdge God in some manner, whether through idol worship, spirit worship, angel worship, or evolution worship. cool My God lives forevermore.
Yeah, except for one tiny little fact.....THEY'RE ALL DIFFERENT GODS! They're not all the same, they don't act all the same, and they certainly don't have all the same powers. So,no, they're not worshipping YOUR god at all.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Cedre, posted 02-09-2009 1:09 AM Cedre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Cedre, posted 02-09-2009 1:58 AM Huntard has replied
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Cedre
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 175 of 224 (498200)
02-09-2009 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Huntard
02-09-2009 1:44 AM


Re: Huntard
You are too huntard, and the fact alone that you inconvenience yourself to return my posts is proof in it self that you're troubled to a degree. Admit it come on.
They may be different God's but that's not my point, my point is that people all over have worshiped some form of god. They look up into space because they feel that there must be something much greater than they somewhere out there. In any case to clear the confusion of the multiple god's the real God gave us the bible, exposing the one and only true God, and as if that wasn't enough he came down in flesh to persuade the world of his aloneness as the only God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Huntard, posted 02-09-2009 1:44 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Huntard, posted 02-09-2009 3:16 AM Cedre has replied

Cedre
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 176 of 224 (498201)
02-09-2009 1:59 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Huntard
02-09-2009 1:44 AM


Re: Huntard
You are too huntard, and the fact alone that you inconvenience yourself to return my posts is proof in it self that you're troubled to a degree. Admit it come on.
They may all be different God's but that's not my point, my point is that people all over have worshiped some form of god. They look up into space because they feel that there must be something much greater than they somewhere out there. In any case to clear the confusion of the multiple god's the real God gave us the bible, exposing the one and only true God, and as if that wasn't enough he came down in flesh to persuade the world of his aloneness as the only God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Huntard, posted 02-09-2009 1:44 AM Huntard has not replied

Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 177 of 224 (498202)
02-09-2009 2:24 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by DevilsAdvocate
02-08-2009 9:18 AM


Re: Modulous
DA writes:
I didn't cite Matthew 12:1-21 because I don't think this was a clear cut case in which Jesus disobeyed the Sabbath. But I will entertain your comments.
God does not disobey any Law he has set in motion. He is Lord of any law because he is absolute in morality to begin with. You would need to demonstrate from the source you cite (the scriptures) that this same God does not possess these qualities to condemn an action in these instances. Since both in the Old and New T, it is clearly stated in no uncertain terms, as I have quoted that he is Lord of all, that he disobeyed anything. Your task is insurmountable.
Yoiur problem as always is that you are ignoring the grandure of the being from the source you condemn. You have no way to proceed.
This seems to be the mainline Catholic and Protestant view of the trinity i.e. support the Nicene Creed. However, you are in stark disagreement with Peg and ICANT then, who seem to be anti-Trinitarian in there faith:
I am not defending Peg or ICANT, especially Peg. I noticed you quoted nothing from ICANT, so I will wait. But i doubt he disagrees to much to matter.
"One like the Son of man came to the Ancient of days, and they brought Him near before Him"
Than why wait 2000+ years to amend his original commands, why did he not incorporate this philosophy of desiring mercy rather than sacrifice in his original commandments in the Pentateuch. This is hypocritical.
You will notice that the quote, :Hosea 6: 4, "I desire mercy rather than sacrifice and and knowledge over buunt offerings is from the Old Testament and referenced in the NT.
Hosea 6:4"O Ephraim, what shall I do to you? O Judah, what shall I do to you? For your faithfulness is like a morning cloud, And like the early dew it goes away. 5Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets, I have slain them by the words of My mouth; And your judgments are like light that goes forth. 6For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. 7"But like men they transgressed the covenant; There they dealt treacherously with Me. 8Gilead is a city of evildoers And defiled with blood. 9As bands of robbers lie in wait for a man, So the company of priests murder on the way to Shechem; Surely they commit lewdness. 10I have seen a horrible thing in the house of Israel: There is the harlotry of Ephraim; Israel is defiled. 11Also, O Judah, a harvest is appointed for you, When I return the captives of My people.
Devil writes:
In my opinion, all this "God can change his mind or amend or end the OT law" crap is an attempt by early Church fathers i.e. Jerome, Augustine and the like to try to rectify the obvious moral inconsistencies between the OT and the NT resulting from merging two worldviews together, the Semitic worldview of the OT and the Hellenized worldview of the NT. You explaining that God has the right to do this does not make it less of an inconsistent
Again any attempts to show a different God in the OT verses the one in the NT fails first by a simple examination of passages in both testaments. The abve verse is a classic example. Again, like always, yours is one of failing to distinguish between a God, judge and lawgiver, verse the way in which he wishes us to interact with eachother. God can certainly forgive or overlook any sin based on his eternal justice. Notice DA the SEVERITY of the consequences spokenof in this passage alone. Does it not indicate as through the whole Old Testament that God is both merciful, longsuffering and Just. Its usually and only when people have ignored Gods commands and wishes, time after time after time, he is forced to act as a judge and jury, so to speak.
Yet this has nothing to do with the fact that the same priciples that are taught in the New are not already present in the Old Testament. So your contention that he waited for however long is without merit or force.
For a moment lets look at it from a humanistic, non-biblical, non-religious perspective. In manycoutries it is perfectly acceptable to lop off someones hand if they are caught stealing, in some other countries it aceptable to despense justice in ways that would seem bizzare to us. Who is correct and are we justified in proclaiming them as evil, irrational and inconsistent. So yes, me explaining that God can change his methods, from the source you quote, but fail to realize his qualities of omnipotence and omniscience, does make it right and eliminates any form of inconsistencies.
Heck most people would look at our system where individuals are granted appeal after appeal only to be set free in such instances and this goes on for 15 to 20 years at times. They would say this is inconsistant behavior, from thier perspective. Do you see where I am going again DA. Your insistance that Gid is inconsistant is simply absurd. The only thing that makes it more absurd is the vehemence and assurance with which you state your case, as if you knew what was consistant or not.
Then why wait 2000+ years to amend his original commands, why did he not incorporate this philosophy of desiring mercy rather than sacrifice in his original commandments in the Pentateuch. This is hypocritical.
God has specific purposes for all that he does in and from his eternal perspective (his granduer).
Hebrews 1 explains that God does indeed do things in different ways at different times for different purposes.
Paul says" the Law was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ". He also states that "In the FULLNESS OF TIME he sent forth his Son into the world." The time table is for our purposes no t his, due to the fact that he designed us in this or that fashion.
The devil writes:
It is like telling your child, "If someone throws a punch at you, you must fight back and kick there ass". Then when you get a call from the principle saying your child was in a fight you tell your child in the presence of the teachers and principle, "Haven't I always told you to turn the other check and walk away from fights" and then punishing them for there actions. This is the epitome of hypocrisy and inconsistent moral behavior.
What if the PRINCIPLE in this scenario overrides both the child and parents wishes and imposes punishment on the child (expulsion) since the incident and the child are under the principles (Gods)purview ? Would the action be correct. What if the next student only recieved a verbal reprimand, is it in the principles righs to administer judgement as they see fit? Do you see where I am going with this DA?
You saying it is so does not necessarily make it so. This is an a priori statement which has no method of being validated or falsified. It is also circular reasoning:
a. God is non-contradictory in nature
b. Therefore God's laws are non-contradictory
c. If we examine God's laws they are non-contradictory in nature
d. Therefore God is non-contradictory in nature
Now I know you are only in the Navy you knothead, no Im just joking ofcourse, DA, but LISTEN UP SEAMAN. You are the one accusing God and the scriptures of inconsistency, you are basing this inconsistency from principles in the scriptures and the God of the Bibles character. It beehoves you to take all the scriptures has to say about his character before proceeding to the argument about whether this is real or not in the first place. Since you keep avoiding it in principle I will ask you a direct question. ASSUMING the scriptures are correct about God and his character, would you say that as an omnipotent and omniscient being possessing all knowledge, has the right to decide what is right and proceed with judgement and punishment, Yes or No?
A person's will/testament does not kill people for being adulterers, blasphemers, talking back to your parents. It does not enslave people and make rules for this enslavement. Someone's will & testament does not condemn people to eternity in hell. Besides a will and testament is the determination of disposition of someone's personal property after his/her death, this has nothing to do with God commanding a select group of people on social morality in the OT and NT. Your analogy falls apart here.
Gods covenant or will was with Israel. Christ is the mediator of a different covenant in Gods plan. Would not the earth and the people in it be Gods property? Look at Romans 2:14-16. God dealt with the gentiles in a covenant of the heart and mind, against the law he put in our hearts. However, and eternal Gods judgements are based on his grandure and omniscience. You can avoid this point but you cannot set it aside.
So why did God not make Jesus teachings the Law from the beginning? Why change horses midstream. Why cause all this confusion? It is a bit too contrived.
He did. There are no moral principles in the New that are not already echoed or advocated in the Old. But please distinguish between Gods moral principles of Mercy and Justice.
Thou shalt LOVE the Lord thy God with all thy heart. Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thy self.
Trust me, I can go to most books in the Old and produce the same principles in the NT.
God justice is based on his eternal knowledge and morality.
Sometimes his jutice is swift as in the case of the man that touched the ark or in the NT with Annanias and Sapphira. Sometimes it is longsuffering. Can WE be Gods Judge?
But he was disobeying his own law(s) in John 8. Did Jesus/God not COMMAND people to stone adulterers. Yes or No?
Did Jesus/God not follow his own command. Yes or No?
NO.
Your not paying attention DA. If God/Jesus is LORD of the Law or Sabbath, he has the right to decline sentence in such matters. There is only Law because of Gods existence, not visversa. He did not break a law if he is the one that set it in motion for humans themselves. If a omnipotent and omniscient God decides to exercise JUDGEMENT on human behavior in the form of extermination, based on eternal absolute knowledge, how will we condemn such action? It is not murder, its justice. If you dont like this I would suggest you BECOME all of the things God is, then you can oppose him in some serious fashion.
At present your arguments amount to nothing but complaints.
Therefore, God with foreknowledge perpetuated this behavior of hypocrisy and mechanical adherence to the law in the first place.
Either God is the most ignorant entity on matters of human psychologically and sociology or he is a mere fabrication of human religious fanatics. I would go with the latter.
You really should study ALL the principles in the OT before you designate them as hypocritical or mechanical. Besides failing to distinguish between Gods Mercy verse his Justice, you cherry pick what you dont like and leave the rest behind.
Just because you say so, does not make it so. Keep justifying ethnocide and the murder of children and babies.
Ok then, you win. Ill make you and your band of Merry Humanists my God/s. Do you have any instructions for me now that I have converted to your philosophies. Oh yes, one more question, what do I do when I run into another human being that disagrees sharply with your way of proceeding or thinking? Could you get me a scripture on how to proceed in this situation? Oh please hurry DA, Im sinking fast.
You have no clue what I do or do not understand. Stop pretending you do. I understand, I just don't agree with your justification of your religious book or of your god.
Wheeew, I was beginning to worry. I was scared that you did not understand the difference between an ARGUMENT and a DISAGREEMENT. So then you you just disagree, you have no valid argument to condemn the God of the sriptures. Perhaps at this point yo would like to retreat back to, "None of this is real anyway", assertion.
D Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-08-2009 9:18 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Cedre, posted 02-09-2009 3:00 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied
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Cedre
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 178 of 224 (498204)
02-09-2009 2:46 AM


Re: Clarification
I’ve noticed that in forum discussion like this one or in any other discussion where to worldviews collide; people will often claim that their worldview is the right one at the expense of the other. They do this not because they’re position is favored by the evidence but many times because they are too proud to relinquish their position.
Worldviews are inherently interpretations; they follow from the way we see things. It’s like a crime scene, detectives or forensics will often reach two opposing ends after having analyzed the evidence from the same crime scene. In the end only one will win over the jury’s heart, and often times the jury may allow emotions and feelings to get in the way of their final decision. This is the reason retrials even exist, and it’s possible that someone found guilty the first time will be found innocent the second time around.
Different people interpret evidence differently; the question is not whose interpretation is supported by the majority but whose interpretation does the most justice to the evidence.
The same thing applies at science. Evolutionist and creationist share the same body of evidences; the difference is how they approach that evidence. We (Christians) look at the universe and say, wow look at what God did! And the Evolutionist looks at the same evidence and say, wow look at what Mother Nature did! But who is right.
Let me give an example. An evolution fossilist unearths a strange skeleton and says huh, look it a missing link, whereas a creationist would simply conclude, huh, look it’s a new creature. Which position is more logical, a transition between two individuals or an animal that resembles features present in the two animals because the same God made them all.
So the bottomline is, no one in the EvC debate has better evidence than the other, yet evolution advocates are fond of making statements like, "there is no evidence to support creationism." This statement is in the wrong as we share the same body of evidence, it is our interpretations that differ. The right question to be asked therefore is, whose interpretation best fits the evidence?

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by PaulK, posted 02-09-2009 3:12 AM Cedre has replied
 Message 196 by Modulous, posted 02-09-2009 4:33 AM Cedre has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 179 of 224 (498207)
02-09-2009 3:00 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by Cedre
02-09-2009 1:44 AM


Re: Deity of Christ
Cedre writes:
See Joh 1:1; Col 2:9; Joh 10:30; Heb 1:3. The above are just some of the versus that talk about the issue of Christ's divinty.
i appreciate that we think differently on this count.
What is your take on what the New Encyclopaedia Britannica says
"Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such appears in teh new Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the oOld Testament: 'Hear O Isreal; The Lord our God is one Lord'...The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies...By the end of the 4th century...the doctrine of the Trinity took substanially the form it has maintained ever since." Vol X p.126
or what about what the New Catholic Encyclaopedia says
" The formulation of one God in Three was not solidly established prior to the end of the 4th century. Among the Apostolic Fathers there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective" Vol XIV p299. 1976.
this means that the scriptures did not contain such an idea and the idea did not enter the church until after the inspired writings were complete.
So the question we must ask is, should a doctrine that was not written or expressly conveyed by the Apostles or Jesus, be accepted as part of Christian teaching?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Cedre, posted 02-09-2009 1:44 AM Cedre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Cedre, posted 02-09-2009 3:12 AM Peg has replied

Cedre
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 180 of 224 (498208)
02-09-2009 3:00 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by Dawn Bertot
02-09-2009 2:24 AM


Re: Bertot
Interesting reply to modulous. You're evidently well-imformed in the area of apologetics. Keep up the good work.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-09-2009 2:24 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

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