Faith and belief - The Almighty God revealed through his grandness

i do see what you did there huntardcan you tell me if any scientist has been successful in creating life thru chemical reactions in the lab?

by all means search for evidence... and when evidence is found, then by all means give us the conclusionuntil then, i'd be sidelining abigenesis and i hope no one minds if I continue to believe life was created

according to the bible, God made mad from the groundit doesn not explain the process God used to do this and so I cannot tell you thatLets face it, we are both in the same boat... Its all about faith.you have faith in something you cannot see just as i have faith in something i cannot see

well thats not quite true eitherwe have a nation of people who claim to have had direct dealings with God.
Now if you believe their word or not is not the issue...the fact is that a nation of people (jews) have a historical record of Gods intervention on their behalfa record of Gods powerful Acts on their behalfa record of Gods laws and propheciesa record of Gods own Son coming to earth and dieing on a stakethe followers of Jesus have a visible history that is clearly seen in archeology, roman history, and right down to our day a continual line of evidence which leads people like myself to beleive that this God of the bible is real.so i have faith based on what i believe to be evidence. I can see the walls of Jerusalem, the ancient christain church's and manuscripts, the prophecies fulfillments...all these things are tangible evidence.i have evidence for which my faith is based on.

Yes i do believe their claims. Islam do indeed have an historical religion. Mohammad was a real person and their devotion to him is real.Hindu's also have a miriad of gods whom they created. I believe this because they also have tangible evidence of such and you dont have to go too far to find evidence for it.this does not mean that my belief in them inspires faith.No, i dont believe Mohammad was sent by God, no i dont believe the many thousands of Hindu gods are actually real gods.

Isaiah was written during the reign of Uzziah, who began to rule in 829BCE, and he continued to be a prohet into the time of Hezekiah’s reign because Isiah writes about an incident that took place in Hezekiahs '14th year' which was in 742BCE.
There are references that help to date the book for example Isaiah 14:28 dates a pronouncement concerning Philistia “in the year that King Ahaz died,” which would be 746BCE.and Daniel wrote his prophecies whilst he was a captive in Babylon under Nebuchadnezzar and Belshazzar of the Medo Persian empire...they ruled 607 B.C.E to around about 536 BCE
Daniel became a government official of Medo Persia.

Mohammad is a well documented historical figurethe fact that they believe he was sent by God is irrelevantyou asked if i believe in islam, yes i do. Of course Islam have a founder and their history can be traced.its the same with Christianity...they have a founder and their history can be traced... whether one believes Jesus was the messiah or not is irrelevant

hi bluescat48,what studies have shown that isaiah was written in the 4th century and Daniel in the 2nd/3rd?

i appreciate that we think differently on this count.What is your take on what the New Encyclopaedia Britannica says
"Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such appears in teh new Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the oOld Testament: 'Hear O Isreal; The Lord our God is one Lord'...The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies...By the end of the 4th century...the doctrine of the Trinity took substanially the form it has maintained ever since." Vol X p.126or what about what the New Catholic Encyclaopedia says
" The formulation of one God in Three was not solidly established prior to the end of the 4th century. Among the Apostolic Fathers there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective" Vol XIV p299. 1976.this means that the scriptures did not contain such an idea and the idea did not enter the church until after the inspired writings were complete.So the question we must ask is, should a doctrine that was not written or expressly conveyed by the Apostles or Jesus, be accepted as part of Christian teaching?

I agree with you, the CC is not the ultimate authority on biblical text and yet they were the ones who formulated the idea of the trinity.the same trinity that most other christian denominations now also teach.But I do think the scriptures are the ultimate authority. So what do they say?

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Acts7:55 says that Stephen was given a vision of Heaven and says that he saw 'Jesus standing at the right hand of God'

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Stephen saw 2 separate entities, Jesus and God...but no Holy Spirit.

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Matt 26:39 'Jesus fell on his face and prayed, My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass before me; nevertheless, not as I will but as thou wilt'

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If the Father and the Son were not two distinct individuals, this prayer would have been pointless because he would have been praying to himself for his own will to be passed from himself.

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John8:17 'Jesus answered the Pharasees: In your law it is written that the testimony of two men is true; I bear witness to myself and the Father who sent me bears witness to me'

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Here again Jesus separates himself from his Father as individuals.

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Rev 1:1 'The revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave him'

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If Jesus and God were the same person, this would be impossible

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Mark 13:32 'Of that day and hour nobody knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father'

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If Jesus and the Father were the same person, Jesus would have known when Judgment day would be... according to his own words, he did not know Gods timetable.

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Mathew 20:20 'The mother of the sons of Zebedee said Command that these two sons of mine may sit at your right and left hand in your kingdom. But Jesus answered...to sit and my right and left hand is not mind to give, but it is for those to whom it has been prepared by my Father'

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Jesus here was showing that his authority is not as great as that of his Father who hold the ultimate authority.

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Mathew 12:31 'And whoever says a word against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirrt will not be forgiven'

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This outrightly contradicts the trinity because it shows that the Holy Spirit is greater then the Son because if one blasphemes against the Son, he will be forgiven, but not if one sins against the Holy Spirit.

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John 14:28 'The father is greater then I am'

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it cant be any clearer then this statement of Jesus. they were not equal, the Father was greater.

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1Cor 11:3 'The head of every man is the Christ, the head of a woman is her husband and the head of Christ is God.

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here we see that the headship arrangement applies Christ. He is subject to God the same way that man is subject to him and a woman to her husband. This is a subordinate position that Jesus had to his God. They can not be equal.

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1Cor 15:27 'God has put all things in subjection under Jesus feet...When all things are subjected to him ,then the Son himself will also be subjected to him...that God may be all things to everyone'

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Here we see that Jesus will come to be subjected to God. How can this be if he is God. How can he subject himself to himself?Cedre, you gave me a few scriptures which you say prove the trinity to be factual. Yet all the scriptures i posted above are obviously contrary to the trinity.You also acknowledge that the teachings of a the catholic church, a church that has admitted that the trinity was not an original biblical teaching, are not the authority... so which should i believe?the scriptures, or traditions of men? Edited by Peg, : No reason given.Edited by Peg, : No reason given.Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

im sorry cedre,the trinity and i do not live on the same page and never will.If the Trinity doctrine had been taught by Jesus and his disciples, then surely leading churchmen who came immediately after them would also have taught it. But did any of the Apostolic Fathers, teach the Trinity doctrine? No.
Some of them were Clement of Rome, Ignatius, Polycarp, Hermas, and Papias.Regarding what those men wrote, The New Encyclopædia Britannica says:“Taken as a whole the writings of the Apostolic Fathers are more valuable historically than any other Christian literature outside the New Testament.”If the apostles taught the Trinity doctrine, then those Apostolic Fathers should have taught it too. It should have been prominent in their teaching, since nothing was more important than telling people who God is. Do you know what they taught?The Didache includes the following confession of faith in the form of a prayer:

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“We thank you, Holy Father, for your holy Name which you have made to dwell in our hearts; and for the knowledge and faith and immortality which you have made known to us through Jesus your Servant. Glory to you forever! You, Almighty Master, created everything for your Name’s sake ... And to us you have graciously given spiritual food and drink, and life eternal through Jesus your Servant.”

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do you think calling Jesus a 'servant' implies that Jesus and God are one?Clement of Rome who was one of the first Bishops wrote:

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“We will beg with earnest prayer and supplication that the Creator of the universe will keep intact the precise number of his elect in the whole world, through his beloved Child Jesus Christ. ... We realize you [God] alone are ”highest among the highest’ ... You alone are the guardian of spirits and the God of all flesh.”

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“Let all the nations realize that you are the only God, that Jesus Christ is your Child.”

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Clement does not say that Jesus or the holy spirit is equal to God. He presents Almighty God (not just 'Father') as distinct from the Son. God is spoken of as superior, since Christ is 'sent forth' by God, and God 'chose' Christ. Showing that God and Christ are two separate and unequal identitiesI think it is much wiser to believe the scriptures then to believe doctrines that were devised well after the scriptures were written.

the trinity hides the identity of the Almighty God.Jesus was directing us to his Father... So if we want salvation, we must know who the Father is and if we cannot identify him then how can we know him, if we dont know him then how can we pray in faith and if we cannot pray in faith then it is impossible to please him.