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Author Topic:   Faith and belief - The Almighty God revealed through his grandness
Modulous
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 196 of 224 (498236)
02-09-2009 4:33 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by Cedre
02-09-2009 2:46 AM


Re: Clarification
We (Christians) look at the universe and say, wow look at what God did! And the Evolutionist looks at the same evidence and say, wow look at what Mother Nature did! But who is right.

Would it be too much to ask that you don't conflate 'Evolutionist' with 'materialist', 'physicalist' or 'atheist'?

Evolutionism is not a world view, any more than Germism or Gravitism. Evolutionists are people that accept what the science says about evolution, more or less.

So the bottomline is, no one in the EvC debate has better evidence than the other

OK, let's assume that's the case. The 'E' side has the same evidence, but their reasoning leads to their conclusions with far fewer assumptions and logical inconsistencies.

By the time this thread has lived up to its goal all will be in awe of his grandeur and nobility but most importantly his LOVE for humanity

This is the topic - you are halfway through. Is it going as you planned?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Cedre, posted 02-09-2009 2:46 AM Cedre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Cedre, posted 02-09-2009 5:32 AM Modulous has responded

Cedre
Member (Idle past 255 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 197 of 224 (498237)
02-09-2009 4:35 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by Huntard
02-09-2009 4:04 AM


Re: Huntard
Isn't that what homolgy is all about? Maybe you would like to tell me how they compare the fossils.

"Yes there is (mechanisms for evolution). It's called mutation and natural selection." - Huntard

O, man you folks are tireless, you pound the creationist saying that, Observability, testability, repeatability, and falsifiability are the hallmarks of the scientific method. Yet you yourselves don't abide to this trend when you carry out your research, you're a bunch of hypocrits, where in the world has mutations been seen to produce beneficial results, or evolutionary change and natural selection to give rise to new individuals. Your stuck in a wishful world.
lets take a look at the odds, the odds of getting two mutations that are related to one another is the product of the separate probabilities: one in 107 x 107, or 1014. That’s a long way from producing a truly new structure, and certainly a long way from changing an individual into some new kind of organism. You need more mutations for that. So, what are the odds of getting three mutations in a row? That’s one in a billion trillion (1021). Suddenly, the ocean isn’t big enough to hold enough bacteria to make it likely for you to find a bacterium with three simultaneous or sequential related mutations. Mutations are not a friend of evolution.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Granny Magda, posted 02-09-2009 5:27 AM Cedre has not yet responded

Cedre
Member (Idle past 255 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 198 of 224 (498241)
02-09-2009 5:18 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by Peg
02-09-2009 4:24 AM


Re: Deity of Christ
In the functions ascribed to the several persons of the Trinity in the redemptive process, and, more broadly, in the entire dealing of God with the world - the principle of subordination is clearly expressed. The Father is first, the Son is second, and the Spirit is third, in the operations of God as revealed to us in general, and very especially in those operations by which redemption is accomplished. Whatever the Father does he does through the Son (Rom 2:16; Rom 3:22; Rom 5:1, Rom 5:11, Rom 5:17, Rom 5:21; Eph 1:5; 1Th 5:9; Tit 3:5) by the Spirit. The Son is sent by the Father and does His Father's will (Joh 6:38); the Spirit is sent by the Son and does not speak from Himself, but only talks of Christ's and shows it unto His people (Joh 17:7), and Jesus says that 'one that is sent is not greater than he that sent him' (Joh 13:16). But yes God the father, son, and the holy spirit are one, Joh 17:11 "Holy Father, I am no longer in the world. I am coming to you, but my followers are still in the world. So keep them safe by the power of the name that you have given me. Then they will be one with each other, just as you and I are one."
They are three personalities in one, with surbodinate roles. think of them like 1*1*1=1, three in one not three god's but three personalities with varying roles, to make it easier to understand you could think of them in the terms of body, soul, and spirit. Jesus is like the body he is the image of God, Jesus said to his disciples, if you have seen me you have seen the father. The soul and the spirit will be the other two members of the godhead. Jesus could consult God the Father, because he is greater than him in role to a certain degree. But they share the same power, for example Jesus was also involved in the creation process.

Joh 1:2-4, "In the beginning was the one who is called the Word. The Word was with God and was truly God. From the very beginning the Word was with God. And with this Word, God created all things. Nothing was made without the Word. You see, Gen 1:1 tell us, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." but in John Jesus is said to have created everything in fact, nothing was made without the Word (Jesus). Jesus is God, so is the Holy Spirit.

Mark 13:32 'Of that day and hour nobody knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father'
Remember when Jesus was living on the earth he was both man and God simultaneously, when he made the above statement, it was the man part of Jesus replying to his disciples, that is because he was a man and the bible states that no man knows the day and hour, Jesus obviously couldn't have known.

Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.

Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Peg, posted 02-09-2009 4:24 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Peg, posted 02-09-2009 5:43 AM Cedre has responded

Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2380
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 199 of 224 (498244)
02-09-2009 5:27 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by Cedre
02-09-2009 4:35 AM


Re: Huntard
Hello Cedre,

quote:
O, man you folks are tireless

Why thank you.

quote:
you're a bunch of hypocrits

No, we're hypocrites. If you're going to chuck insults at us, at least have the decency to spell them correctly.

quote:
where in the world has mutations been seen to produce beneficial results

Here; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez

On the other side of that link you will find details of how E-coli bacteria developed the novel ability to metabolise citrate. There is an interesting interview with the researcher who wrote this paper here, you will need Flash to view it though.

quote:
or evolutionary change and natural selection to give rise to new individuals.

Very silly. Do you look exactly like either of your parents? No? Then evolutionary change has created a new individual.

quote:
lets take a look at the odds, the odds of getting two mutations that are related to one another...

Let me stop you there. Why do you mention two mutations specifically? Why not talk about one? I'm curious, please indulge me with an answer.

Of course, these type of post hoc probability calculations are pretty silly anyway. To calculate the probabilities of an event, one needs to know all of the variables that might have influenced that event. You don't know all those variables, so you are wasting your time. Sorry.

So far, The Almighty God has revealed, through his grandness, that his latest devotee doesn't know much about science.

Mutate and Survive


"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Cedre, posted 02-09-2009 4:35 AM Cedre has not yet responded

Cedre
Member (Idle past 255 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 200 of 224 (498245)
02-09-2009 5:32 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by Modulous
02-09-2009 4:33 AM


Re: Clarification
Wrangle as you will until you go red in the face that evoltuion is grounded fact and is in the same boat with the law of gravity, but the current state of evolution shouldn't even qualify it as a theory, much less a law. Pleas Evolution has been drowned by the mounting evidence against it, and you can breathe into its mouth until you run out of breath and it still won't come alive ever. so now give up trying to revive it, just bury it already.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Modulous, posted 02-09-2009 4:33 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Modulous, posted 02-09-2009 6:12 AM Cedre has responded
 Message 219 by Nighttrain, posted 02-09-2009 9:39 PM Cedre has not yet responded
 Message 220 by bluescat48, posted 02-09-2009 9:46 PM Cedre has not yet responded

PaulK
Member
Posts: 15624
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 201 of 224 (498247)
02-09-2009 5:40 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by Cedre
02-09-2009 4:18 AM


Re: Paul K
quote:

O, with delight, lets start with the 1. Piltdown Hoax, not only was the Piltdown skull itself fraudulent but the entire mammalian fauna of the gravels had been planted and the human artefacts manufactured. The main suspect to date is, Charles Dawson. And yet it somehow fooled for 40 years the world's top experts. I wonder how this happened

Perhaps you can provide some reference for the entire mammalian fauna being faked - it's the first time I've heard that claim. However as you admit that the perpetrator is unknown we cannot say if a palaentologist did it or not.

quote:

2. Nebraska Man - On receiving a tooth [found in Nebraska] from a Mr. Harold Cook, H. F. Osborn (head of the American Museum of Natural History) declared it had characteristics which were a mixture of human, chimpanzee and pithecanthropus. He named it Hesperopithecus haroldcookii (Harold Cook's Evening Ape). It was discovered to be a fraud in 1953, it turned out to be the tooth of an exstinct pig.

This is not a fake, and the correct identification was found well before 1953.

quote:

3. A skull, found in Spain and promoted as the oldest example of [man] in Eurasia, was later identified as that of a young donkey [This was in 1984].

I note that you provide no evidence of forgery in this case. (And if it is the one I am thinking of it is a small skull fragment, not a full skull !).

quote:

4. In 1983 an American anthropologist tried to pass off a dolphin's rib as the collarbone of a prehistoric man.

I note that you present no evidence of forgery.

quote:

5. A report from the Los Angeles Times recently had the byline, "Once Hailed as a Missing Link, Forgery is Found to be Mosaic of Fossils from Microraptor and a Bird"

It is known that this forgery wa not created by paleontologists.

I asked for five examples, and you have come up with not one definite case.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Cedre, posted 02-09-2009 4:18 AM Cedre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Cedre, posted 02-09-2009 5:46 AM PaulK has responded

Peg
Member (Idle past 3265 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 202 of 224 (498248)
02-09-2009 5:43 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by Cedre
02-09-2009 5:18 AM


Re: Deity of Christ
Cedre writes:

They are three personalities in one, with surbodinate roles. think of them like 1*1*1=1, three in one not three god's but three personalities with varying roles, to make it easier to understand you could think of them in the terms of body, soul, and spirit. Jesus is like the body he is the image of God, Jesus said to his disciples, if you have seen me you have seen the father. The soul and the spirit will be the other two members of the godhead. Jesus could consult God the Father, because he is greater than him in role to a certain degree. But they share the same power, for example Jesus was also involved in the creation process.

im sorry cedre,

the trinity and i do not live on the same page and never will.

If the Trinity doctrine had been taught by Jesus and his disciples, then surely leading churchmen who came immediately after them would also have taught it. But did any of the Apostolic Fathers, teach the Trinity doctrine? No.
Some of them were Clement of Rome, Ignatius, Polycarp, Hermas, and Papias.

Regarding what those men wrote, The New Encyclopædia Britannica says:

“Taken as a whole the writings of the Apostolic Fathers are more valuable historically than any other Christian literature outside the New Testament.”

If the apostles taught the Trinity doctrine, then those Apostolic Fathers should have taught it too. It should have been prominent in their teaching, since nothing was more important than telling people who God is. Do you know what they taught?

The Didache includes the following confession of faith in the form of a prayer:

quote:
“We thank you, Holy Father, for your holy Name which you have made to dwell in our hearts; and for the knowledge and faith and immortality which you have made known to us through Jesus your Servant. Glory to you forever! You, Almighty Master, created everything for your Name’s sake . . . And to us you have graciously given spiritual food and drink, and life eternal through Jesus your Servant.”

do you think calling Jesus a 'servant' implies that Jesus and God are one?

Clement of Rome who was one of the first Bishops wrote:

quote:
“We will beg with earnest prayer and supplication that the Creator of the universe will keep intact the precise number of his elect in the whole world, through his beloved Child Jesus Christ. . . . We realize you [God] alone are ‘highest among the highest’ . . . You alone are the guardian of spirits and the God of all flesh.”

“Let all the nations realize that you are the only God, that Jesus Christ is your Child.”


Clement does not say that Jesus or the holy spirit is equal to God. He presents Almighty God (not just 'Father') as distinct from the Son. God is spoken of as superior, since Christ is 'sent forth' by God, and God 'chose' Christ. Showing that God and Christ are two separate and unequal identities

I think it is much wiser to believe the scriptures then to believe doctrines that were devised well after the scriptures were written.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Cedre, posted 02-09-2009 5:18 AM Cedre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Cedre, posted 02-09-2009 5:52 AM Peg has responded

Cedre
Member (Idle past 255 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 203 of 224 (498249)
02-09-2009 5:46 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by PaulK
02-09-2009 5:40 AM


Re: Paul K
O don't be that naive this were examples that world experts in the field were too naive enough to fall for, they hailed it as evidence for evolution, especially the Piltdown man. for forty years this was used as evidence for the theory, 40 years. I don't think they were naive but rather they didn't do any proper examinations of these various finds because they had found what they were looking for.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by PaulK, posted 02-09-2009 5:40 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by PaulK, posted 02-09-2009 6:01 AM Cedre has not yet responded
 Message 221 by Nighttrain, posted 02-09-2009 9:48 PM Cedre has not yet responded

Cedre
Member (Idle past 255 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 204 of 224 (498251)
02-09-2009 5:52 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Peg
02-09-2009 5:43 AM


Re: Deity of Christ
My place is not to convince you but only to guide you as a fellow christian, god does the convincing. Believe what you will this is doctrine it is not realy that important to our salvation, as long as you acknowledge Jesus and his role in salvation than you are safe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Peg, posted 02-09-2009 5:43 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Peg, posted 02-09-2009 6:08 AM Cedre has not yet responded

Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3910
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 205 of 224 (498252)
02-09-2009 5:53 AM


Scavenger hunt time
When was the last time a message touched upon the topic's theme?

Seriously, when was it?

Go ahead, reply to the message.

Adminnemooseus

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Change ID.


New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.

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It really helps moderators figure out if a topic is disintegrating because of general misbehavior versus someone in particular if the originally non-misbehaving members kept it that way. When everyone is prickly and argumentative and off-topic and personal then it's just too difficult to tell. We have neither infinite time to untie the Gordian knot, nor the wisdom of Solomon.

There used to be a comedian who presented his ideas for a better world, and one of them was to arm everyone on the highway with little rubber dart guns. Every time you see a driver doing something stupid, you fire a little dart at his car. When a state trooper sees someone driving down the highway with a bunch of darts all over his car he pulls him over for being an idiot.

Please make it easy to tell you apart from the idiots. Source


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PaulK
Member
Posts: 15624
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 206 of 224 (498253)
02-09-2009 6:01 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by Cedre
02-09-2009 5:46 AM


Re: Paul K
quote:

O don't be that naive this were examples that world experts in the field were too naive enough to fall for

All I'm asking you to do is to support your claim - which was that there were numerous examples of transitional fossils faked by paleontologists. It's not "naivety" to point out that you fiailed to meet my challenge.

Or did you mean that it was naive to expect you to reply honestly ? Sorry, but you don't get to rewrite my challenge to suit your answer.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Cedre, posted 02-09-2009 5:46 AM Cedre has not yet responded

Peg
Member (Idle past 3265 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 207 of 224 (498255)
02-09-2009 6:08 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by Cedre
02-09-2009 5:52 AM


Re: Deity of Christ
Cedre writes:

Believe what you will this is doctrine it is not realy that important to our salvation

the trinity hides the identity of the Almighty God.

Jesus was directing us to his Father... So if we want salvation, we must know who the Father is and if we cannot identify him then how can we know him, if we dont know him then how can we pray in faith and if we cannot pray in faith then it is impossible to please him.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Cedre, posted 02-09-2009 5:52 AM Cedre has not yet responded

Modulous
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 208 of 224 (498256)
02-09-2009 6:12 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by Cedre
02-09-2009 5:32 AM


Re: Clarification
Wrangle as you will until you go red in the face that evoltuion is grounded fact and is in the same boat with the law of gravity, but the current state of evolution shouldn't even qualify it as a theory, much less a law.

Feel free to check out Confidence in evolutionary science to find out why I have the confidence I do have in the science behind evolution.

For the sake of the topic: Are you trying to tell me that the Grandeur of Almighty God is revealed in the fact that you think the evidence for evolution is unsatisfactory? After all, you said yourself that this is "chiefly a theological debate". So what theological conclusions can be found in the perceived failings of a scientific idea, exactly? How does it tell me anything about "grandeur and nobility but most importantly his LOVE for humanity."?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Cedre, posted 02-09-2009 5:32 AM Cedre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Cedre, posted 02-09-2009 6:54 AM Modulous has responded

Cedre
Member (Idle past 255 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 209 of 224 (498263)
02-09-2009 6:54 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Modulous
02-09-2009 6:12 AM


Re: Clarification
I'll admit that I haven't been that faithful to the actual topic of this thread. But how can anyone expect me to give any attention to the topic, if everyone around me is raising irrelavt points, I also end up being irrelevant myself in the process of answering their points. But I have shown God's terrible splendor, Job 13:11 "and his glorious splendor would make you terrified." I have shown his power, Psa 97:5 "Mountains melt away like wax in the presence of the LORD of all the earth." and his lofty ways, Isa 55:8-9 "The LORD says: "My thoughts and my ways are not like yours. Just as the heavens are higher than the earth, my thoughts and my ways are higher than yours." but more importantly I have shown his love for mankind Joh 3:16 "God loved the people of this world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who has faith in him will have eternal life and never really die." John 15:13 "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
One just has to look at the monstrous size of the universe, notice all its mysteries and wonders, and the beauty in its artistry to realize God's grandeur. When you do this you begin to comprehend just how big a sacrifice God perfomed for mankind when he died at their hands. For a god of such splendor, glory and supremacy, to lower himself to the level of mankind, from his high and lofty throne. John 15:13 "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Modulous, posted 02-09-2009 6:12 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Modulous, posted 02-09-2009 7:35 AM Cedre has not yet responded

Cedre
Member (Idle past 255 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 210 of 224 (498267)
02-09-2009 7:16 AM


Re: In Conclusion
I would like to thank everyone who participated in this thread, you were all great. A special thanks to Peg for giving interesting stirs to the debates, a special thanks also to Huntard, MrJack, kuresu, cavediver, Paulk and others for making the conversations lively. Thank you all, for giving this thread a record 209 posts excluding this one. I trust that even though this thread did not fully live up to its potential, it was at least captivating and hopefuly changed a few minds. But now I have to conclude this discussion. Thankyou once more and cheers until we meet again in another thread.

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by Rahvin, posted 02-09-2009 12:03 PM Cedre has not yet responded

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