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Author Topic:   Percy is a Deist - Now what's the difference between a deist and an atheist?
Minnemooseus
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Posts: 3708
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1 of 375 (498336)
02-09-2009 7:59 PM


A spin-off of Percy's I Am Not An Atheist! topic.

Setting aside most or all of what is in the above cited message and topic, I have one question: Isn't it a mighty fine line between deist and atheist? I think so.

This is NOT to be any sort of "the failings/evils of atheism" topic. The topic theme is the distinction between deist and atheist.

Faith and Belief forum, I presume.

Moose

Edited by Minnemooseus, : Modified topic title - Added the second part.


Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." - H.L. Mencken (1880-1956)

"Nixon was a professional politician, and I despised everything he stood for — but if he were running for president this year against the evil Bush-Cheney gang, I would happily vote for him." - Hunter S. Thompson

"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose


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Admin
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Posts: 12580
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
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Message 2 of 375 (498342)
02-09-2009 8:19 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Taz
Member (Idle past 1372 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 3 of 375 (498347)
02-09-2009 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Minnemooseus
02-09-2009 7:59 PM


A good clock maker makes the clock and then sits back and watches it function properly. A bad clock maker makes the clock and keeps having to go back to it to fix glitches and imperfections.

A deist believes that god is a good clock maker. A christian believes that god is a bad clock maker.


This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
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Posts: 19759
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 7.1


Message 4 of 375 (498349)
02-09-2009 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Minnemooseus
02-09-2009 7:59 PM


Hey Moose,

I have one question: Isn't it a mighty fine line between deist and atheist? I think so.

As another resident Deist, let me reply.

The rational conclusion based on evidence is agnosticism, the uncertainty of existence of god/s.

Atheists are on one side of the line of agnosticism, deists are on the other. This may be a fine line, but the distinction is real, like the difference between negative numbers and positive numbers, with the zero position being your fine line.

The atheist believes there is no evidence of god/s and that the absence of evidence is evidence of absence (all A is B, B therefore A logical fallacy).

The deist believes that god/s is/are essentially unknowable, that all evidence points to the way the natural world functions as created, and all we can understand is how it works.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19759
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 7.1


Message 5 of 375 (498350)
02-09-2009 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Taz
02-09-2009 8:37 PM


A deist believes that god is a good clock maker. A christian believes that god is a bad clock maker.

So what does the atheist believe? If the atheist believes that if any clockmaker exists that it must be a bad clockmaker, citing evidence of bad designs, doesn't that make them closer to the christian than to the deist?

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2074 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 6 of 375 (498353)
02-09-2009 9:22 PM


Ath vs Dei
An atheist looks at religion and sees nothing but unfulfilled claims, dodgy texts, failure to uphold tenets, and a bloody history. He/she/it considers the workings of this world as bacteria-based, random, malevolent, with no safeguards but personal and societal efforts. He believes (:-)) the only way out of our mess is to do the work ourselves, e.g. science.

Deists believe in an unknowable god, but don`t know how they thought that.

Agnostics straddle the fence waiting for that final confirming piece of evidence to make up their minds. No matter how small. Or how distant.

'It`s hot'
'Jump in the water'
'It might be shark-infested'
'It`s a lake'
'Sharks are found in lakes'
'It`s fresh water'
'There are freshwater sharks'
'In Central Australia?'
'They found fossils'
'..............'
'..............'
'..............'

Edited by Nighttrain, : dropped an 's'


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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 375 (498357)
02-09-2009 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Taz
02-09-2009 8:37 PM


The Sleepy Clockmaker
Taz writes:

A good clock maker makes the clock and then sits back and watches it function properly. A bad clock maker makes the clock and keeps having to go back to it to fix glitches and imperfections.
A deist believes that god is a good clock maker. A christian believes that god is a bad clock maker.

As I understand deism, the clock maker who had no space in which he could have existed somehow miraculously tosses out some substances from which a substance called metal is derived, into the cosmos. Scientists call this expansion. Eventually these substances form into balls called stars, planets etc. On one of these balls different substances from the ball eventually became a clock. The lazy clockmaker fell asleep after tossing out the substances into the cosmos dreaming about who knows what.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3708
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 8 of 375 (498359)
02-09-2009 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by RAZD
02-09-2009 8:51 PM


Theism, Deism, and Atheism/Agnosticism
Maybe should have had this in message 1.

From http://www.theism.info/:

Theism:

quote:
Theism is the belief in a god or gods. Classical theism affirms the existence of one god, and ascribes to this god certain attributes, e.g. omnipotence, omniscience, immutability, and impassibility. The aim of this site is to define these attributes, and explore the difficulties that arise when one tries to explain them.

There are many different positions concerning the existence and nature of God; theism is just one of many alternatives. Rival positions include atheism, agnosticism, pantheism, and deism.


Deism:

quote:
In Western society, one of theism’s strongest rivals, historically speaking, has been deism. Deists affirm the existence of God, but deny that he has revealed himself to us as is claimed by the monotheistic religions. They thus accept the idea of God as Creator, but reject purported revelation such as the Torah, the Bible, and the Koran. The deist god merely set the universe in motion; he does not intervene in it on a continuous basis in the way that theists have claimed.

Atheism/Agnosticism:

quote:
Those without belief in God may be either atheists or agnostics. Atheism may be defined either weakly as the absence of belief in God, or in a stronger form as active disbelief in God.

Agnosticism too comes in weaker and stronger forms; agnosticism may be understood as simple uncertainty, indecision concerning God’s existence, or it may be understood as the view that the question as to whether God exists is one that in principle can never be answered.


I would summarize extreme theism as - Believes there is a God or gods, and she/he/it is all controlling - She/he/it started everything and nothing happens that is counter to her/his/its will. I am NOT advocating that anyone of the debate board is such a pure extreme theist.

A pure deist, of course, would be a theist only in the "started everything" aspect.

A pure agnostic would be a "don't know, and perhaps, a don't care".

A pure atheist would be a "She/he/it didn't do anything".

Expanding a bit, a deist would be a "She/he/it started everything", but beyond that is "non-knowing" (agnostic) or "didn't do anything further" (atheistic). A deist is 0.1% theistic, 99.9% agnostic and/or atheistic.

Noting again that one deistic bit:

quote:
In Western society, one of theism’s strongest rivals, historically speaking, has been deism.

This statement puts deism in opposition to theism.

Moose

Edited by Minnemooseus, : Firefox's spell-check missed something.


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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19759
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 7.1


Message 9 of 375 (498361)
02-09-2009 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Nighttrain
02-09-2009 9:22 PM


Re: Ath vs Dei
Thanks Nighttrain,

I wasn't aware that you had lakes in the middle of australia :)

Deists believe in an unknowable god, but don`t know how they thought that.

You may not know.

atheist: there is no evidence of god/s

deist: all people all over the world have religions

atheist: that is not evidence of god/s,

deist: it is evidence of common spirituality

atheist: the religions are different, some vastly different

deist: people all over the world have similar religious experiences, those are interpreted within the context of their culture

atheist: those are hallucinations

and on it goes

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19759
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 7.1


Message 10 of 375 (498363)
02-09-2009 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Buzsaw
02-09-2009 9:41 PM


Re: The Sleepy Clockmaker
Thank you Buz for your understanding.

... the clock maker who had no space in which he could have existed somehow miraculously tosses out some substances from which a substance ...

Isn't that what genesis says?

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

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Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3879
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 11 of 375 (498364)
02-09-2009 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Nighttrain
02-09-2009 9:22 PM


Re: Ath vs Dei
An atheist looks at religion and sees nothing but unfulfilled claims, dodgy texts, failure to uphold tenets, and a bloody history.

I am really looking that this topic not become a critique of the details of specific religions and/or the successes or failures of those religions.

In other words, please no religion bashing.

Adminnemooseus


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Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3879
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 12 of 375 (498366)
02-09-2009 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by RAZD
02-09-2009 9:52 PM


Please, this is not a Genesis/Rest of the Bible critique topic
See also my response to Nighttrain.

Adminnemooseus


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kjsimons
Member
Posts: 665
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003


Message 13 of 375 (498367)
02-09-2009 10:00 PM


The only rational belief is disbelief until there is evidence. With this in mind only the atheist is rational. As an individual you may believe anything you want to with or without evidence, but it ain't rational. Deist are the least threatening persons who believe in god(s) along with that agnostics. Those who believe in a god(s) that intervenes and directs and demands certain behaviors under threat of eternal damnation are the worst of the lot.

Atheism is rational give the lack of evidence, all else is not.

Edited by kjsimons, : No reason given.


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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19759
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 7.1


Message 14 of 375 (498370)
02-09-2009 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Minnemooseus
02-09-2009 9:47 PM


Re: Theism, Deism, and Atheism/Agnosticism
Curiously

Expanding a bit, a deist would be a "She/he/it started everything", but beyond that is "non-knowing" (agnostic) or "didn't do anything further" (atheistic). A deist is 0.1% theistic, 99.9% agnostic and/or atheistic.

contradicts or is contradicted by

Noting again that one deistic bit:
quote:
In Western society, one of theism’s strongest rivals, historically speaking, has been deism.

This statement puts deism in opposition to theism.

Unless that 0.1% is more important than the other 99.9% - in which case it isn't 0.1% ...

Or the rivalry has nothing to do with opposition, but with the appeal to people of reason.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Minnemooseus, posted 02-09-2009 9:47 PM Minnemooseus has responded

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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19759
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 7.1


Message 15 of 375 (498371)
02-09-2009 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by kjsimons
02-09-2009 10:00 PM


Strangely

The only rational belief is disbelief until there is evidence.

contradicts or is contradicted by

As an individual you may believe anything you want to with or without evidence, but it ain't rational.

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : twoway street


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
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