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Author Topic:   Percy is a Deist - Now what's the difference between a deist and an atheist?
Minnemooseus
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Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 1 of 375 (498336)
02-09-2009 7:59 PM


A spin-off of Percy's I Am Not An Atheist! topic.
Setting aside most or all of what is in the above cited message and topic, I have one question: Isn't it a mighty fine line between deist and atheist? I think so.
This is NOT to be any sort of "the failings/evils of atheism" topic. The topic theme is the distinction between deist and atheist.
Faith and Belief forum, I presume.
Moose
Edited by Minnemooseus, : Modified topic title - Added the second part.

Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." - H.L. Mencken (1880-1956)
"Nixon was a professional politician, and I despised everything he stood for ” but if he were running for president this year against the evil Bush-Cheney gang, I would happily vote for him." - Hunter S. Thompson
"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Taz, posted 02-09-2009 8:37 PM Minnemooseus has not replied
 Message 4 by RAZD, posted 02-09-2009 8:51 PM Minnemooseus has replied
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 Message 333 by Straggler, posted 03-22-2009 8:36 AM Minnemooseus has replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 8 of 375 (498359)
02-09-2009 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by RAZD
02-09-2009 8:51 PM


Theism, Deism, and Atheism/Agnosticism
Maybe should have had this in message 1.
From http://www.theism.info/:
Theism:
quote:
Theism is the belief in a god or gods. Classical theism affirms the existence of one god, and ascribes to this god certain attributes, e.g. omnipotence, omniscience, immutability, and impassibility. The aim of this site is to define these attributes, and explore the difficulties that arise when one tries to explain them.
There are many different positions concerning the existence and nature of God; theism is just one of many alternatives. Rival positions include atheism, agnosticism, pantheism, and deism.
Deism:
quote:
In Western society, one of theism’s strongest rivals, historically speaking, has been deism. Deists affirm the existence of God, but deny that he has revealed himself to us as is claimed by the monotheistic religions. They thus accept the idea of God as Creator, but reject purported revelation such as the Torah, the Bible, and the Koran. The deist god merely set the universe in motion; he does not intervene in it on a continuous basis in the way that theists have claimed.
Atheism/Agnosticism:
quote:
Those without belief in God may be either atheists or agnostics. Atheism may be defined either weakly as the absence of belief in God, or in a stronger form as active disbelief in God.
Agnosticism too comes in weaker and stronger forms; agnosticism may be understood as simple uncertainty, indecision concerning God’s existence, or it may be understood as the view that the question as to whether God exists is one that in principle can never be answered.
I would summarize extreme theism as - Believes there is a God or gods, and she/he/it is all controlling - She/he/it started everything and nothing happens that is counter to her/his/its will. I am NOT advocating that anyone of the debate board is such a pure extreme theist.
A pure deist, of course, would be a theist only in the "started everything" aspect.
A pure agnostic would be a "don't know, and perhaps, a don't care".
A pure atheist would be a "She/he/it didn't do anything".
Expanding a bit, a deist would be a "She/he/it started everything", but beyond that is "non-knowing" (agnostic) or "didn't do anything further" (atheistic). A deist is 0.1% theistic, 99.9% agnostic and/or atheistic.
Noting again that one deistic bit:
quote:
In Western society, one of theism’s strongest rivals, historically speaking, has been deism.
This statement puts deism in opposition to theism.
Moose
Edited by Minnemooseus, : Firefox's spell-check missed something.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by RAZD, posted 02-09-2009 8:51 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by RAZD, posted 02-09-2009 10:06 PM Minnemooseus has replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 16 of 375 (498372)
02-09-2009 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by RAZD
02-09-2009 10:06 PM


Re: Theism, Deism, and Atheism/Agnosticism
contradicts or is contradicted by
I didn't see those at all as contradictions, rather, they were two ways of saying the same thing.
Unless that 0.1% is more important than the other 99.9% - in which case it isn't 0.1% ...
I gave those arbitrary values for "starting the universe" versus "everything that happened since said start". From the theist perspective, I would think that "starting the universe" is a relatively very small part of the collected "works of God".
Moose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by RAZD, posted 02-09-2009 10:06 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by RAZD, posted 02-09-2009 10:40 PM Minnemooseus has replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 18 of 375 (498375)
02-09-2009 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by RAZD
02-09-2009 10:40 PM


Re: Theism, Deism, and Atheism/Agnosticism
If 0.1% theism is the biggest rival of theism, then why wouldn't 0% theism be bigger? If atheism is not a bigger rival then that small difference is critical.
The quote is:
quote:
In Western society, one of theism’s strongest rivals, historically speaking, has been deism.
It does not say deism is THE strongest/biggest rival - It says ONE OF the strongest rivals. Certainly, now atheism is a stronger and more prominent rival - How much of the general population has any idea of what deism is? Before my participation in , I had never heard of such a thing.
Also, they say "historically". At the beginnings of the United States, wasn't deism a big thing? And atheism probably a small thing?
The essence of it all is, I'm calling deism to be essentially the same thing as agnosticism and/or atheism. To what degree that is true is the topic title question.
The problem here, is that the universe was created at the start to cause "everything that happened since said start" and thus it is also included in the package.
You seem to be saying God had things preprogrammed towards exactly the results we now have. He did not at all "roll the dice". God could start the universe again and have things replay the exact same way.
That sure sounds like a micro-manager God - Highly theistic and not what I understand to be deistic.
...and you assume theists know the rest?
Theistic extremists do come off a being highly non-agnostic. I think they're wrong, and most any thinking and honest theist would have a fair chunk of agnostic in him or her. A deist does have that big chuck of agnostic in him or her.
Moose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by RAZD, posted 02-09-2009 10:40 PM RAZD has replied

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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 73 of 375 (498707)
02-12-2009 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by RAZD
02-10-2009 9:35 PM


My intent wasn't to compare deism to theism
Either way, I could also counter your assumed numbers by saying that in 0.1% of the time, the deist god/s did 100% of the work (job done, no need to interfere) while the theist god in 99.9% of the time has only accomplished 50% of the work (job half done, gotta keep adding things, redesigning things, scratch and start over).
My topic theme was not to compate deism to theism, thus the pertinent part is:
Either way, I could also counter your assumed numbers by saying that in 0.1% of the time, the deist god/s did 100% of the work (job done, no need to interfere)...
But my counter is that the atheist (non)God, in 0% of the time did 100% of the work. You pick a starting point and call it your deistic God, the agnostic/atheist picks the same starting point and calls it "don't know"/"not God".
Your deism is "in the very beginning the was God - since then, no God." Non-guidance except for the very beginning and total non-guidance is essentially if not absolutely the same thing. Thus deism is essentially if not absolutely equivalent to agnosticism/atheism.
Moose

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 Message 41 by RAZD, posted 02-10-2009 9:35 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 185 of 375 (500354)
02-25-2009 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by RAZD
02-20-2009 9:35 PM


Back to the fundamental definitions and functionality considerations
Sorry if I missed too much of the previous discussion - It's all too much for me to keep up on in any real comprehensive manner.
RAZD writes:
Deists believe in god/s, {irrelevant justifications snipped}.
# Atheists don't believe in god/s, {irrelevant justifications snipped}.
First of all, the above (here only partially quoted) statements may be equivalent to those of message 4, but my personal impression is that they are more clearly stated than those of message 4.
Putting all that aside, I never was interested in the justifications for deistic beliefs and for atheistic non-beliefs. I was interested in the practical day to day applications of the beliefs/non-beliefs.
So I state once again my impression of the deistic and atheistic positions:
Deist - Believes that a God or gods set up the parameters for and initiated the beginnings of the universe as we know it, but took no active roll in the universe since that start-up.
Atheist - No belief that a God or gods set up the parameters for and initiated the beginnings of the universe as we know it, and also that there are no God/gods taking an active roll in the universe since that start-up.
For both deist and atheist, the position is "No belief that God/gods took any active roll in the universe since its start-up."
I said in message 1:
Minnemooseus writes:
Isn't it a mighty fine line between deist and atheist? I think so.
Here I restate (or perhaps clarify) my position that deists and atheists are functionally the same. Any belief or non-belief of why/how it happened "in the beginning" is irrelevant to do how deists and atheists function in the present.
Moose

Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." - H.L. Mencken (1880-1956)
"Nixon was a professional politician, and I despised everything he stood for ” but if he were running for president this year against the evil Bush-Cheney gang, I would happily vote for him." - Hunter S. Thompson
"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by RAZD, posted 02-20-2009 9:35 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 353 of 375 (504269)
03-26-2009 3:53 AM
Reply to: Message 333 by Straggler
03-22-2009 8:36 AM


Doin' the deist/atheist flip-flop
I never was interested in Percy or RAZD's justifications for their deism.
Moose writes:
Setting aside most or all of what is in the above cited message and topic, I have one question: Isn't it a mighty fine line between deist and atheist? I think so.
In practical terms I don't think anybody disagrees with this.
Not that such is the case for Percy or RAZD, but I feel one might easily (to make use of the in vogue term ) flip-flop-flip-flop between atheism and deism. Maybe one morning you wake up from some sort of profound dream and find yourself a deist. Later that day, the profundity of the dream fades and you're back to atheist. Repeat cycle as often as you want.
Regardless, I don't see how the difference between deism and atheism has the slightes effect on how you run your life. To me, deism is trivial to the point of all but absolutely insignificant.
Or something like that.
Moose

This message is a reply to:
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