Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Pagan origins of the bible stories
greyline
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 20 (49845)
08-11-2003 1:12 AM


I'm interested in the parallels between Roman and Greek mythology, and the bible stories of Original sin, the Virgin birth, the Trinity, the Resurrection, the Ascension, Hell, satan... etc. And also ancient myths that predate the OT stories of creation and the flood.
Is there a Christian perspective on these similarities?
------------------
o--greyline--o

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Pringlesguy7, posted 10-09-2003 3:17 AM greyline has not replied

  
Pringlesguy7
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 20 (60229)
10-09-2003 3:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by greyline
08-11-2003 1:12 AM


here ya go
CHeck some of these verses out psalm 74:14, Psalm 89:10, it talks about crushing the heads of Leviathan, and Rahab. They were mythological beasts that were heavily worshipped in those days. People ask, why is this in the Bible? It could be in their to mock the other "gods". I'm not sure how much help this is, other creation stores are the Gilgamesh, the Enuna Elish, and the epic of Atraphsis. Also, if you think about why alot of the creation stories sound the same. IF you believe in the Bible as GOD'S INERRENT WORDS, then you have to accept the fact taht after the flood, everyone settled in the same place ( Noahs family, I believe they came down on Mt arat somewhere around the Mesopotamian/Middle east area....hmmm..the Gilgamesh and the Enuma Elish are Mesopotamian Creation stories.) and when God scattered and confused the people in Babel when they tried to build the tower, then it would only make sense that their creation and other stories from the OT are simliar. ( They all originate from the same place in Mesopotamia/Middle east) This also explains why every civilization has similiar flood and creation accounts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by greyline, posted 08-11-2003 1:12 AM greyline has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Rrhain, posted 10-09-2003 5:47 PM Pringlesguy7 has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 3 of 20 (60321)
10-09-2003 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Pringlesguy7
10-09-2003 3:17 AM


Re: here ya go
Pringlesguy7 writes:
quote:
hmmm..the Gilgamesh and the Enuma Elish are Mesopotamian Creation stories
But they predate the Bible.
Hmmmm....
What are the odds that if I write a story and ten years later you write the identical story that I copied you rather than you copied me?
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Pringlesguy7, posted 10-09-2003 3:17 AM Pringlesguy7 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by phil, posted 10-09-2003 11:21 PM Rrhain has not replied

  
phil
Guest


Message 4 of 20 (60359)
10-09-2003 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Rrhain
10-09-2003 5:47 PM


Re: here ya go
But they predate the Bible.
Hmmmm....
What does that matter? If all three are accounts of the same event, then why does it matter in what order they were written down? After the flood, people would have spread out, but the story of the global flood would have been passed along through oral tradition until they were finally written down. In this particular case, the biblical account was just written down after several other accounts were.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Rrhain, posted 10-09-2003 5:47 PM Rrhain has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by NosyNed, posted 10-09-2003 11:26 PM You have not replied
 Message 6 by Rrhain, posted 10-10-2003 5:09 AM You have not replied

     
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 5 of 20 (60361)
10-09-2003 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by phil
10-09-2003 11:21 PM


Re: here ya go
hmmm and are they the same stories? If they differ significantly wouldn't the one written down earlier have a better chance of getting it closer to right? Especially if centuries passed between.
So to the degree that Genesis disagrees with the other accounts we may take it that Genesis is more likely to be wrong?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by phil, posted 10-09-2003 11:21 PM phil has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 6 of 20 (60397)
10-10-2003 5:09 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by phil
10-09-2003 11:21 PM


Re: here ya go
phil responds to me:
quote:
quote:
But they predate the Bible.
Hmmmm....
What does that matter?
I told you. Why did you cut it?
What are the odds that if I write a story and ten years later you write the identical story that I copied you rather than you copied me?
Do you not get it? If I write a story and you copy me, then how much credence should we give to you when you say that you're the original author? How much credence do we give to your story when you claim that mine is simply a "myth" that is "based on" your story?
quote:
If all three are accounts of the same event, then why does it matter in what order they were written down?
Because they are not identical but simply highly similar. So if you are going to claim that one is a bastardization of the "real" event and yet the "real" description post-dates the supposed "myths," by what justification can you make that claim?
quote:
After the flood, people would have spread out, but the story of the global flood would have been passed along through oral tradition until they were finally written down. In this particular case, the biblical account was just written down after several other accounts were.
So why is the Biblical one the "real" account while the older accounts, closer to the actual event if it ever happened, are "myths"?
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by phil, posted 10-09-2003 11:21 PM phil has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Pringlesguy7, posted 10-10-2003 2:37 PM Rrhain has replied
 Message 8 by Loudmouth, posted 10-10-2003 4:24 PM Rrhain has not replied

  
Pringlesguy7
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 20 (60443)
10-10-2003 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Rrhain
10-10-2003 5:09 AM


Re: here ya go
if you know who wrote the first 5 books of the Bible, and a little about it, you would know why it was written down at a later time, and how it was written down. We know that GOd showed/told moses about the creation. ( that is if you believe Moses is the author of the Pentateuch) So in essence, if the creator or the universe told you waht happened, that would a good enough reason for me to see why the Bible would not be a myth. And how do you know if the other accounts are closer? Do you know something that everyone else doesnt? If so, please share

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Rrhain, posted 10-10-2003 5:09 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Cthulhu, posted 10-10-2003 5:14 PM Pringlesguy7 has replied
 Message 16 by Rrhain, posted 10-13-2003 7:35 AM Pringlesguy7 has not replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 20 (60461)
10-10-2003 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Rrhain
10-10-2003 5:09 AM


Re: here ya go
Do you not get it? If I write a story and you copy me, then how much credence should we give to you when you say that you're the original author? How much credence do we give to your story when you claim that mine is simply a "myth" that is "based on" your story?
In today's society, I would agree that it was copied. However, in ancient societies oral tradition was much more common due to the illiteracy of the people. I think we should err on the side of oral tradition instead of written accounts as an index for source dating. However, in the case of The Epic of Gilgamesh and the Old Testament, the dates are far enough apart IMO to at least give the Epic the title as source material.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Rrhain, posted 10-10-2003 5:09 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
Cthulhu
Member (Idle past 5852 days)
Posts: 273
From: Roe Dyelin
Joined: 09-09-2003


Message 9 of 20 (60462)
10-10-2003 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Pringlesguy7
10-10-2003 2:37 PM


Re: here ya go
Except Moses never existed.
------------------
Ia! Cthulhu fhtagn!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Pringlesguy7, posted 10-10-2003 2:37 PM Pringlesguy7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Pringlesguy7, posted 10-11-2003 2:51 PM Cthulhu has not replied

  
Pringlesguy7
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 20 (60529)
10-11-2003 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Cthulhu
10-10-2003 5:14 PM


Re: here ya go
hey cthulhu
wow, good one, source....evidence? Posts like those are just plain stupid. You do nothing to support either side with any kind of evidence.
------------------
"We may ignore, but we can nowhere evade, the presence of God."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Cthulhu, posted 10-10-2003 5:14 PM Cthulhu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Asgara, posted 10-11-2003 2:55 PM Pringlesguy7 has not replied
 Message 12 by crashfrog, posted 10-11-2003 2:56 PM Pringlesguy7 has replied

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 11 of 20 (60531)
10-11-2003 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Pringlesguy7
10-11-2003 2:51 PM


Re: here ya go
Hi Pringlesguy7
Welcome to the forum by the way. Please forgive Cthulhu, he is posting from the middle of a dream as he sleeps at the bottom of the ocean.
Maybe you could give us some evidence FOR the existance of Moses? External to the Bible?
------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Pringlesguy7, posted 10-11-2003 2:51 PM Pringlesguy7 has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 12 of 20 (60532)
10-11-2003 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Pringlesguy7
10-11-2003 2:51 PM


wow, good one, source....evidence? Posts like those are just plain stupid. You do nothing to support either side with any kind of evidence.
But what sort of evidence could you have for the non-existence of a legendary person? That's like saying "show me evidence that Santa Claus doesn't exist."
If you're going to make a claim that Moses is an actual historical person you're the one that has to show the evidence, not us. Otherwise you're put in the position of having to prove the non-existence of every ridiculous thing.
Think a little harder next time before you decide who has to show the evidence, and who does not. There's no evidence that Moses ever existed. Certainly the Egyptians don't mention him. If there's no evidence he existed, why is it fruitful to suppose that he did?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Pringlesguy7, posted 10-11-2003 2:51 PM Pringlesguy7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Pringlesguy7, posted 10-11-2003 10:06 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Pringlesguy7
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 20 (60571)
10-11-2003 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by crashfrog
10-11-2003 2:56 PM


so you are saying that I could say that evolution is a bunch of crap, and its ok, becuase YOU are the one who has to prove it, since I am making the accusations against the non-existence of a legendary
concept? (I dont know how your country's legal system works, but when someone in a court case makes an accusation about somthing, they normally have to have some sort of evidence supporting it.)
and the last time I checked, I wasnt coming right out and saying" Moses existed", and then not show any evidence, so im not sure what brought on your reply to my post?
What kind of evidence would it take for you to believe he existed? His birth certificate? His bones? Want to do a DNA test on his body?
I also never said that it would be fruitful to believe he existed. (unless I type a whole bunch of stuff that I never mean to, and never erase it, nor ever see it)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by crashfrog, posted 10-11-2003 2:56 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by John, posted 10-12-2003 4:41 AM Pringlesguy7 has not replied
 Message 15 by crashfrog, posted 10-12-2003 4:43 PM Pringlesguy7 has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 20 (60604)
10-12-2003 4:41 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Pringlesguy7
10-11-2003 10:06 PM


quote:
so you are saying that I could say that evolution is a bunch of crap, and its ok, becuase YOU are the one who has to prove it, since I am making the accusations against the non-existence of a legendary
concept?

Nope. The person making the claim for the existence of a thing or mechanism, provides the proof. The evidence for evolution exists; claiming it is crap means dismantling that evidence. The case for Moses is different. There is no case. There is no evidence at all for this person, except for his appearance in a book of semi-legendary history-- a book known to contain historical errors. Mere appearance in a book is not sufficient evidence. I'm sure you'll agree, otherwise you'd have to accept the reality of numerous other legendary figures from world mythology.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Pringlesguy7, posted 10-11-2003 10:06 PM Pringlesguy7 has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 15 of 20 (60636)
10-12-2003 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Pringlesguy7
10-11-2003 10:06 PM


so you are saying that I could say that evolution is a bunch of crap, and its ok, becuase YOU are the one who has to prove it
Yes, that's correct. You could say "show me the evidence for evolution" and it would be my obligation to do so, or at least point you in the direction of it. If you asked I might point you towards Gould's "Structure of Evolutionary Theory" or simply point out how the fossil record, genetics, and morphology all point to a common ancestry of all life, and that natural selection + random mutation have been shown to be a significantly robust mechanism to explain how this would be so.
Now, at that point, in the face of that evidence, you'd have to explain why the evidence is flawed or points to some other conclusion in order to disprove evolution. At that point you'd have to have your own evidence. But the person making the positive claim - such-and-such exists/happens - is the one who has to present evidence first.
(I dont know how your country's legal system works, but when someone in a court case makes an accusation about somthing, they normally have to have some sort of evidence supporting it.)
Right, it's "innocent until proven guilty". The obligation is on the person who says that something exists or is so, not the person saying it doesn't exist, or isn't so. You say Moses exists. Therefore you have to show the evidence. If you can't, then there's no reason to assume that Moses exists.
I'm not "accusing" Moses of non-existence, because you can't accuse somebody who doesn't exist. You're the one "accusing" Moses of existing, therefore you have to prove it.
I wasnt coming right out and saying" Moses existed", and then not show any evidence, so im not sure what brought on your reply to my post?
No, you said "prove to me that Moses didn't exist." I told you that there's no such proof, and that there doesn't need to be - if you can't prove that Moses existed, then there's no reason to accept that he did.
What kind of evidence would it take for you to believe he existed?
The same thing that it would take to prove that any historical person existed - multiple, independant, consistent accounts of his actions or existence.
I also never said that it would be fruitful to believe he existed.
You implied that he wrote the Pentateuch. That's only possible if you also assume that he existed. If he didn't exist, which seems reasonable to conclude, then we know he didn't write the Pentateuch.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Pringlesguy7, posted 10-11-2003 10:06 PM Pringlesguy7 has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024