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Author Topic:   Which Version of the Bible is the Word of God?
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2188 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 76 of 174 (498060)
02-07-2009 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Peg
02-07-2009 8:04 AM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
do you have some verse's so i can look into it???

Look up Book of Enoch and Book of Jubilees in Wikipedia for an opening guide. After you have digested them, we can pursue it further. If you wish. :-)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Peg, posted 02-07-2009 8:04 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Peg, posted 02-09-2009 1:12 AM Nighttrain has responded

    
Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 85 days)
Posts: 2380
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 77 of 174 (498065)
02-07-2009 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Peg
02-07-2009 8:04 AM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
Here is an example of the regard which the writer of the Epistle of Jude had for 1 Enoch. Compare these quotes.

quote:
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Jude 14-15 (KJV)

quote:
And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones
To execute judgement upon all,
And to destroy all the ungodly:
And to convict all flesh
Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed,
And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.
1 Enoch 1:9

Sounds like I'm in big trouble come judgement day. :)

One Enoch is particularly interesting, not least because it clearly describes the flat-Earth cosmology that is implied in the canonical books of the Bible. It's somewhat off-topic, but there is an excellent treatment of this here, which you might find enlightening.

Mutate and Survive


"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade
This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Peg, posted 02-07-2009 8:04 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 3124 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 78 of 174 (498190)
02-09-2009 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Granny Magda
02-07-2009 6:21 PM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
hi GM

Granny magda writes:

One Enoch is particularly interesting, not least because it clearly describes the flat-Earth cosmology that is implied in the canonical books of the Bible.

where does the bible imply a flat earth???


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Granny Magda, posted 02-07-2009 6:21 PM Granny Magda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Granny Magda, posted 02-09-2009 4:25 PM Peg has responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 3124 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 79 of 174 (498194)
02-09-2009 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Nighttrain
02-07-2009 5:39 PM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
Nighttrain writes:

Look up Book of Enoch and Book of Jubilees in Wikipedia for an opening guide. After you have digested them, we can pursue it further. If you wish. :-)

it seems 'Jubilees' expresses a belief in astrology and angel worship. This clearly excludes it from being inspired by God because we know that Astrology is condemned (Isa. 47:12-15) Also, the apostle John spoke of falling down before the feet of an angel and he was told: “Be careful! Do not do that! . . . Worship God.”—Rev. 19:9, 10.

like i said before...it seems reasonable that many jews wrote about their history and about certain events. It doesnt necesarrily mean they were writing under inspiration though, nor does it mean that any of the history they wrote was incorrect. It probably was correct and likely the writings were being read by many jews.

i dont think there is any issue with why the bible writers might have referred to them


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Nighttrain, posted 02-07-2009 5:39 PM Nighttrain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Nighttrain, posted 02-09-2009 5:06 AM Peg has responded

    
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2188 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 80 of 174 (498238)
02-09-2009 5:06 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Peg
02-09-2009 1:12 AM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
You still haven`t really answered the question, Peg. If you were a writer under 'Inspiration' (whatever that means), why would you be 'directed' to include uninspired history, poems, whatever? Isn`t God`s message sufficient? Maybe the writers had a bit of spare papyrus and time and said, 'That looks good, I`ll throw that in. Might give me a bit of street cred.'
This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Peg, posted 02-09-2009 1:12 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Peg, posted 02-09-2009 6:01 AM Nighttrain has responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 3124 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 81 of 174 (498254)
02-09-2009 6:01 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Nighttrain
02-09-2009 5:06 AM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
Nighttrain writes:

If you were a writer under 'Inspiration' (whatever that means), why would you be 'directed' to include uninspired history, poems, whatever?

it probably depends on the subject your writing about. In the case of Jude, he was warning his readers about results of turning away from God. therein he mentions people in the past who had done this and the consequences of doing so... this is when he mentions Enoch and how God executed judgement on the ungodly back in that time.

He simply is using an existing and well known account as an example. It fits with his subject matter and it fits his purpose as a reminder of what happens when people turn away from God.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Nighttrain, posted 02-09-2009 5:06 AM Nighttrain has responded

Replies to this message:
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Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 85 days)
Posts: 2380
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 82 of 174 (498318)
02-09-2009 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Peg
02-09-2009 12:53 AM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
I did mention that the flat Earth was off-topic, so I'm just going to redirect you to the link I provided before, this link. It talks at length about the flat Earth viewpoint in the Bible, with plenty of references to the canon, as well as showing how 1 Enoch provides a clear description of this flat Earth.

Take a look. If you want to discuss the subject further, let me know and I'll propose a thread.

For the mean time, I hope that you now agree that "the Christian Bible writers" did indeed quote from the Apocrypha.

Mutate and Survive


"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade
This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Peg, posted 02-09-2009 12:53 AM Peg has responded

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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2188 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 83 of 174 (498354)
02-09-2009 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Peg
02-09-2009 6:01 AM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
it probably depends on the subject your writing about. In the case of Jude, he was warning his readers about results of turning away from God. therein he mentions people in the past who had done this and the consequences of doing so... this is when he mentions Enoch and how God executed judgement on the ungodly back in that time.

He simply is using an existing and well known account as an example. It fits with his subject matter and it fits his purpose as a reminder of what happens when people turn away from God.


So you are saying that the Bible contains writings that are uninspired?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Peg, posted 02-09-2009 6:01 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Peg, posted 02-10-2009 3:42 AM Nighttrain has responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 3124 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 84 of 174 (498386)
02-10-2009 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Granny Magda
02-09-2009 4:25 PM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
Hi GM,

I did read it and i can tell you that the bible does not at all teach a flat earth

it would seem more likely that the truth of your own signature is coming into play '"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade'

its peoples interpretation and that is all it is

the bible uses a lot of poetic language, it uses metaphors to describe things in a way that people can understand. As an example, when the bible says that the moon is a 'light' in the night sky, from an earthly perspective, it is. And when it says that the stars are tiny, from an earthly perspective, they are.

The scriptures do say that the earth is unmovable but it also says that it is 'standing to times indefinite' and 'it will not be made to totter'

Ask yourself how might it be unmovable? We know it is fixed in a perfect orbit and it has never moved out of its orbit. Do you think its possible that its immovability could in anyway be linked to its immovable position in space and its constant orbit?

I mean, look at the way this guy reasons on the scriptures:

it is generally agreed that the Bible describes an immovable earth. ...geocentrist James N. Hanson told me there are hundreds of scriptures that suggest the earth is immovable. I suspect some must be a bit vague, but here are a few obvious texts:

1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”

Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...”

Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ...”

Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”

each scripture uses the term 'fixed' If you think of something that is fixed, it is solid and immovable. It seems that this guy is reasoning that the scriptures must mean that the earth is fixed onto something and cannot be moved

how about this

the earth is 'fixed in its orbit, it is immovable from that orbit, it cannot be shaken from that orbit'

Would I be right in saying that?

interpretations are a funny thing... 50 people can read the same thing and come up with 50 different interpretations. It doesnt mean they are all correct

By your signature I can tell that you most likely agree with that.


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 Message 82 by Granny Magda, posted 02-09-2009 4:25 PM Granny Magda has not yet responded

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Peg
Member (Idle past 3124 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 85 of 174 (498387)
02-10-2009 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Nighttrain
02-09-2009 9:29 PM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
Nighttrain writes:

So you are saying that the Bible contains writings that are uninspired?

no i'm not.

'Inspiration' does not mean that God was causing someone to write and the writer was not actually doing anything himself. Personal effort on the part of the writer was involved and if you look at the scripture at Ecclesiastes 12:9, 10, it says about inspired writers that they were 'pondering, searching, and arranging in order to present properly the delightful words and the writing of correct words of truth.'

Also if you look at the Gospel of Luke we see that he used public records to write down the genealogy of Jesus. Now those records of births and deaths were not inspired writings but still Luke used them and it didn't make his writing any less inspired.

As for the Apocryphal books, these likely contained true history that many Jews already knew about and likely many of Christs disciples were familiar with that history...its perfectly reasonable why Jude quoted one of the events from that book, it had significance for the point he was making.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Nighttrain, posted 02-09-2009 9:29 PM Nighttrain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Nighttrain, posted 02-11-2009 5:43 AM Peg has responded
 Message 92 by PaulK, posted 02-11-2009 7:05 AM Peg has responded
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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5396
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 86 of 174 (498392)
02-10-2009 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Peg
02-10-2009 3:26 AM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
how about this

the earth is 'fixed in its orbit, it is immovable from that orbit, it cannot be shaken from that orbit'

Would I be right in saying that?

Probably not, since the Earth's orbit is a constantly changing thing. This graph shows how the eccentricity - the "ovalness" - of our orbit changes over time. Even at our low present-day eccentricity, we're 5,000,000 km closer to the Sun in January than in July. At eccentricities near maximum, the annual difference is three times that.

And in any case. "immovable" seems a pretty poor description for something travelling 100,000 km per hour. One would expect better from multiple texts that are "inspired."


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 Message 84 by Peg, posted 02-10-2009 3:26 AM Peg has not yet responded

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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2384 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 87 of 174 (498421)
02-10-2009 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Peg
02-10-2009 3:26 AM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
the bible uses a lot of poetic language, it uses metaphors to describe things in a way that people can understand. As an example, when the bible says that the moon is a 'light' in the night sky, from an earthly perspective, it is. And when it says that the stars are tiny, from an earthly perspective, they are.

That would be fine if people accepted them as metaphorical, which many do, these people are quite often referred to a theistic evolutionists.
The point is those who do not see these points as metaphorical but as literal.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


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 Message 84 by Peg, posted 02-10-2009 3:26 AM Peg has responded

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xongsmith
Member
Posts: 1887
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.6


Message 88 of 174 (498453)
02-10-2009 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Coragyps
02-10-2009 7:11 AM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
coragyps writes:

Re: gimme those oldtime MS

how about this

the earth is 'fixed in its orbit, it is immovable from that orbit, it cannot be shaken from that orbit'

Would I be right in saying that?


Probably not, since the Earth's orbit is a constantly changing thing. This graph shows how the eccentricity - the "ovalness" - of our orbit changes over time. Even at our low present-day eccentricity, we're 5,000,000 km closer to the Sun in January than in July. At eccentricities near maximum, the annual difference is three times that.

And in any case. "immovable" seems a pretty poor description for something travelling 100,000 km per hour. One would expect better from multiple texts that are "inspired."

thanks, coragyps. ;)

but it's even worse than just elliptical. the moon, jupiter, all of the planets...they all make tiny perturbations to the motion and it constantly needs recalibration. it is not a perfect orbit in any sense. no such thing exists in the real world.

also, at some point in the future, an as yet unknown large solar system interloper could make a close pass and completely knock it out of the orbit it is in. :eek:


- xongsmith
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8848
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 89 of 174 (498454)
02-10-2009 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by xongsmith
02-10-2009 2:45 PM


An intruder isn't needed...
See:
http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e11/86/solarsys.html

The solar system and Earth's orbit may, or may not be stable in the very long term. We actually can't "do the math" well enough yet.


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Peg
Member (Idle past 3124 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 90 of 174 (498482)
02-11-2009 3:25 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by bluescat48
02-10-2009 8:59 AM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
bluescat48 writes:

The point is those who do not see these points as metaphorical but as literal.

yeah i can see how it can cause confusion


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by bluescat48, posted 02-10-2009 8:59 AM bluescat48 has not yet responded

    
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