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Author Topic:   Which Version of the Bible is the Word of God?
Peg
Member (Idle past 4920 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 81 of 174 (498254)
02-09-2009 6:01 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Nighttrain
02-09-2009 5:06 AM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
Nighttrain writes:
If you were a writer under 'Inspiration' (whatever that means), why would you be 'directed' to include uninspired history, poems, whatever?
it probably depends on the subject your writing about. In the case of Jude, he was warning his readers about results of turning away from God. therein he mentions people in the past who had done this and the consequences of doing so... this is when he mentions Enoch and how God executed judgement on the ungodly back in that time.
He simply is using an existing and well known account as an example. It fits with his subject matter and it fits his purpose as a reminder of what happens when people turn away from God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Nighttrain, posted 02-09-2009 5:06 AM Nighttrain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Nighttrain, posted 02-09-2009 9:29 PM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4920 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 84 of 174 (498386)
02-10-2009 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Granny Magda
02-09-2009 4:25 PM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
Hi GM,
I did read it and i can tell you that the bible does not at all teach a flat earth
it would seem more likely that the truth of your own signature is coming into play '"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade'
its peoples interpretation and that is all it is
the bible uses a lot of poetic language, it uses metaphors to describe things in a way that people can understand. As an example, when the bible says that the moon is a 'light' in the night sky, from an earthly perspective, it is. And when it says that the stars are tiny, from an earthly perspective, they are.
The scriptures do say that the earth is unmovable but it also says that it is 'standing to times indefinite' and 'it will not be made to totter'
Ask yourself how might it be unmovable? We know it is fixed in a perfect orbit and it has never moved out of its orbit. Do you think its possible that its immovability could in anyway be linked to its immovable position in space and its constant orbit?
I mean, look at the way this guy reasons on the scriptures:
it is generally agreed that the Bible describes an immovable earth. ...geocentrist James N. Hanson told me there are hundreds of scriptures that suggest the earth is immovable. I suspect some must be a bit vague, but here are a few obvious texts:
1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”
Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...”
Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ...”
Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”
each scripture uses the term 'fixed' If you think of something that is fixed, it is solid and immovable. It seems that this guy is reasoning that the scriptures must mean that the earth is fixed onto something and cannot be moved
how about this
the earth is 'fixed in its orbit, it is immovable from that orbit, it cannot be shaken from that orbit'
Would I be right in saying that?
interpretations are a funny thing... 50 people can read the same thing and come up with 50 different interpretations. It doesnt mean they are all correct
By your signature I can tell that you most likely agree with that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Granny Magda, posted 02-09-2009 4:25 PM Granny Magda has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Coragyps, posted 02-10-2009 7:11 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 87 by bluescat48, posted 02-10-2009 8:59 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4920 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 85 of 174 (498387)
02-10-2009 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Nighttrain
02-09-2009 9:29 PM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
Nighttrain writes:
So you are saying that the Bible contains writings that are uninspired?
no i'm not.
'Inspiration' does not mean that God was causing someone to write and the writer was not actually doing anything himself. Personal effort on the part of the writer was involved and if you look at the scripture at Ecclesiastes 12:9,10, it says about inspired writers that they were 'pondering, searching, and arranging in order to present properly the delightful words and the writing of correct words of truth.'
Also if you look at the Gospel of Luke we see that he used public records to write down the genealogy of Jesus. Now those records of births and deaths were not inspired writings but still Luke used them and it didn't make his writing any less inspired.
As for the Apocryphal books, these likely contained true history that many Jews already knew about and likely many of Christs disciples were familiar with that history...its perfectly reasonable why Jude quoted one of the events from that book, it had significance for the point he was making.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Nighttrain, posted 02-09-2009 9:29 PM Nighttrain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Nighttrain, posted 02-11-2009 5:43 AM Peg has replied
 Message 92 by PaulK, posted 02-11-2009 7:05 AM Peg has replied
 Message 104 by ramoss, posted 02-14-2009 12:55 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4920 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 90 of 174 (498482)
02-11-2009 3:25 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by bluescat48
02-10-2009 8:59 AM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
bluescat48 writes:
The point is those who do not see these points as metaphorical but as literal.
yeah i can see how it can cause confusion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by bluescat48, posted 02-10-2009 8:59 AM bluescat48 has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4920 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 94 of 174 (498708)
02-13-2009 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Nighttrain
02-11-2009 5:43 AM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
Nighttrain writes:
what`s the filter we use to separate 'inspired' writings from 'uninspired'?
thats a really good question Nighttrain, I'll have to look into it further... here is a scripture to start it off though...
1John 4:1 Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.
not all claims of inspiration were true according to the Apostle John, if that rang true in his day, then it must surely ring true in ours
there must have been a way to 'test' if the expression was inspired in Johns day... there must be a way for us to test it too. I'll do some research and get back to you soon.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Nighttrain, posted 02-11-2009 5:43 AM Nighttrain has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4920 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 95 of 174 (498710)
02-13-2009 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by PaulK
02-11-2009 7:05 AM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
PaulK writes:
No, we don't see that Luke did any such thing. Nor do we have any good reason to suppose that Luke had access to such records or that they even existed when Luke was writing.
According to Jospehus (jewish historian 1st century) the priests kept accurate records of the tribes of their people for the purpose of the Priests to be able to marry only a woman of the priestly tribe. Josephus mentions these records that stem back 2,000 years and points out that no matter where the jews lived, they sent the records of births and marriages to the priests in Jerusalem to make a record of them.
quote:
For our forefathers did not only appoint the best of these priests, and those that attended upon the Divine worship, for that design from the beginning, but made provision that the stock of the priests should continue unmixed and pure; for he who is partaker of the priesthood must propagate of a wife of the same nation, without having any regard to money, or any other dignities; but he is to make a scrutiny, and take his wife's genealogy from the ancient tables, and procure many witnesses to it. (7)
And this is our practice not only in Judea, but wheresoever any body of men of our nation do live; and even there an exact catalogue of our priests' marriages is kept; I mean at Egypt and at Babylon, or in any other place of the rest of the habitable earth, whithersoever our priests are scattered; for they send to Jerusalem the ancient names of their parents in writing, as well as those of their remoter ancestors, and signify who are the witnesses also.
But if any war falls out, such as have fallen out a great many of them already, when Antiochus Epiphanes made an invasion upon our country, as also when Pompey the Great and Quintilius Varus did so also, and principally in the wars that have happened in our own times,
those priests that survive them compose new tables of genealogy out of the old records, and examine the circumstances of the women that remain; for still they do not admit of those that have been captives, as suspecting that they had conversation with some foreigners. But what is the strongest argument of our exact management
in this matter is what I am now going to say, that we have the names of our high priests from father to son set down in our records for the interval of two thousand years;
It was thru these records that the priests were able to determine which family group the women of Isreal were from and so choose a wife accordingly.
this is strong evidence that the genealogical records of the jews were real and available for people to look at.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by PaulK, posted 02-11-2009 7:05 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2009 2:20 AM Peg has replied
 Message 97 by Nighttrain, posted 02-13-2009 3:59 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4920 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 98 of 174 (498721)
02-13-2009 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Nighttrain
02-13-2009 3:59 AM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
Nighttrain writes:
he failed to note the thousands and thousands of people healed by Jesus a generation or so earlier. Makes the TF and the James reference small potatoes compared to THAT oversight.
are you saying you believe that Jesus did perform such miracles?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Nighttrain, posted 02-13-2009 3:59 AM Nighttrain has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4920 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 99 of 174 (498722)
02-13-2009 6:07 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by PaulK
02-13-2009 2:20 AM


Re: gimme those oldtime MS
Oh dear
forget it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2009 2:20 AM PaulK has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4920 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 105 of 174 (498895)
02-15-2009 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by DevilsAdvocate
02-13-2009 8:18 AM


Re: Dragons and Sea-Dogs, Oh My!
serpents are snakes
there is nothing mythical about encountering snakes in a wilderness region
perhaps his description of 'flying serpents' isnt far from the truth
No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.flyingsnake.org/
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-13-2009 8:18 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-15-2009 8:49 AM Peg has replied
 Message 111 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-15-2009 9:31 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4920 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 106 of 174 (498896)
02-15-2009 3:45 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Brian
02-13-2009 8:22 AM


Re: Waste of time
Brian writes:
It doesn't matter if we know Peg is inventing things, she is allowed to say whatever she wants to maintain her skewed version of history, but don't expect her to provide evidence for it.
if you dont mind, i provided evidence for the births and marriages register of the jewish people. I did not make it up nor do i need too.
Discussions certainly do not work when some simply breezes over the evidence provided.
If Josephus is wrong about the records he was writing about, prove it.
I presented my evidence, now you present yours...that's how discussions work.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Brian, posted 02-13-2009 8:22 AM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by PaulK, posted 02-15-2009 4:21 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4920 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 108 of 174 (498900)
02-15-2009 5:09 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by PaulK
02-15-2009 4:21 AM


Re: Waste of time
if priests could easily check the register to find out if a particular woman was from the priestly tribe then obviously the register contained accurate information about which tribe she was from, likely this was thru her fathers line.
the only way the register could do this is if it listed all of the tribes and their descendants
If it did not list all of the descendants, then how could a priest know if a woman was of a priestly tribe or not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by PaulK, posted 02-15-2009 4:21 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by PaulK, posted 02-15-2009 5:14 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4920 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 113 of 174 (499022)
02-16-2009 2:07 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by DevilsAdvocate
02-15-2009 8:49 AM


Re: Dragons and Sea-Dogs, Oh My!
DevilsAdvocate writes:
So Peg, is this a miracle or not? Are you trying to rationalize God's miracles away naturalistically? I am just trying to understand how you relate the two: miracles vs natural phenomena.
many acts that God performs are as simple as the forced occurance of a natural phenomenon
for instance the hail that rained down on the egyptions and the plagues of gnats, frogs and locusts...all natural phenonemon yet bought about at Gods direction
whereas some some things are not naturally occuring and so are called 'miracles' because they do defy the laws of nature...eg Aarons rod turning into a snake, the pillar of fire that led the nation thru the wilderness
Its not beyond Gods ability to use whatever method he chooses... he may cause an earthquake or he may raise a person from the dead
both are miracles because they've been caused by Gods intervention.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-15-2009 8:49 AM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4920 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 114 of 174 (499024)
02-16-2009 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by anglagard
02-16-2009 2:03 AM


Re: What is a "literal translation"?
anglagard writes:
So if the "Ethiopian Orthodox Church to this day regards it to be canonical" how does that fit in with "all bibles in their original languages are the word of God?"
when i say 'bible' im talking about the Canon
its not hard to trace the history of the cannon to know that the book of Enoch was not considered by the early church, or the Jews, an inspired book.
this comes back to Nighttrains question about what constitutes a book 'inspired'
a topic for a new thread perhaps?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by anglagard, posted 02-16-2009 2:03 AM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by anglagard, posted 02-16-2009 2:19 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4920 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 116 of 174 (499038)
02-16-2009 4:40 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by anglagard
02-16-2009 2:19 AM


RE: Which One
The one that Jesus Christ identified in his day.
He accepted the three basic divisions of what is today commonly called the 'Old Testament' which was made up of The Law, The Prophets and the Psalms.
for example, he said 'These are my words which I spoke to you while I was yet with you, that all the things written in the law of Moses and in the Prophets and Psalms about me must be fulfilled.' (Luke 24:44)
As further evidence of the Old Testament and its division into 3 sections are Josephus's words around the year 100C.E., where he confirms that by then the canon of the Hebrew Scriptures had been fixed for a long time.
quote:
He wrote: “We do not possess myriads of inconsistent books, conflicting with each other. Our books, those which are justly accredited, are but two and twenty, and contain the record of all time. Of these, five are the books of Moses, comprising the laws and the traditional history from the birth of man down to the death of the lawgiver.... From the death of Moses until Artaxerxes, who succeeded Xerxes as king of Persia, the prophets subsequent to Moses wrote the history of the events of their own times in thirteen books. The remaining four books contain hymns [Psalms] to God and precepts for the conduct of human life.”
thereafter, the writings of the Apostles of Christ became the basis for the Christian Greek Scriptures and these books were confirmed as legitimate by the early church fathers.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by anglagard, posted 02-16-2009 2:19 AM anglagard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Nighttrain, posted 02-16-2009 6:56 AM Peg has replied
 Message 118 by Nighttrain, posted 02-16-2009 6:59 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4920 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 119 of 174 (499282)
02-18-2009 3:30 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Nighttrain
02-16-2009 6:56 AM


RE: Which One
it was at the temple in Jerusalem where many scrolls were located...perhaps even some of the original writings. Josephus would have been talking about these scrolls and the christians would have been quoting passages from these scrolls also
the scribes of ancient times had been making copies of the original writings continually from the time they were penned

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Nighttrain, posted 02-16-2009 6:56 AM Nighttrain has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by PaulK, posted 02-18-2009 4:22 AM Peg has replied

  
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