Straggler writes:
BUT that an objective reality external to me must be assumed. AND is therefore an axiom.
So we seem to be disagreeing but have yet again managed to find each other in a topic where the terminology is inherently confusing.
Yes, so it seems
I think you're right and we aren't talking about the same thing when we're saying "objective, external reality."
That is, when you talk about it, and make your point, I agree with everything you say.
When I talk about it, and make my point, I don't see what's in error.
The two things we're talking about may not necessarily be contradictions. We may be having a discussion where we're both right, but we're using similar terminology to describe two slightly different aspects of reality.
If you are imagining me verifying your imaginary measurements then how does that prove anything.......?
I see what you mean, and I agree that somewhere we need to assume an external, objective reality in the sense that "things external to me do exist."
However, it's still a falsifiable test. If the measurements you made (regardless of you being my imagination or not) are different from the measurements I make, then this shows that we, in fact, do not have an external, objective reality in the sense that reality is independent of you and I.
We can never "prove" that just because the measurements you make equal mine that you certainly are not from my imagination. But science isn't in the business of "proving" anything. Science is in the business of gaining information in the form of verifiable evidence. And this certainly is verifiable evidence towards the scientific theory that reality is independent of you and I.
So yes, I think there is an axiom in there somewhere. But I also think there's something scientifically-derivable in there too. Where exactly those realms are seperated is escaping me. I will say that I think "external, objective reality" is too broad to just accept as an axiom. I think the actual axiom can be scoped-down a bit so that it doesn't encompass so much. But... without me being able to provide a way to do such (or even a suggestion), I think I'll just slip away from this conversation for a bit and see where else it leads.
I always knew I should have spent more time on English class