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Author | Topic: How did Monkeys get to South America? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
See Message 67
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hey bluegenes, this is a general answer, but I started with you due a pet peeve on genetic dating"
Sorry for the length folks, but I'm just following the evidence.
The probable reason for the question is that the timing of separation is considered to be before the date of ~ 40,000,000 yrs that genetics gives to the divergence of New World Monkeys from the rest of us. As always, I am skeptical of timing from genetic studies. Evolutionary rates can change significantly, and thus to be valid any genetic analysis needs to be tied to fossil evidence where the dates are known, which of course renders the need for genetic dates irrelevant. Thus I prefer to see fossil dates for related organisms where the relationships can be confirmed\validated by the genetic relationships. Personally, I consider genetic "dating" as valid as stratigraphy - it is "soft dating," a relative dating method that serves to confirm the "hard dating" of fossils by radiometric or other means of achieving accurate physical dates. We also need to visit the statement of Message 1 (as currently revised}:
The first mammals did not show up until 66 million years ago. This of course depends on what you define as "mammal" but there is fossil evidence that mammals are older than that, with Therapsids dating to 270 million years, by 250 million years ago we had Cynodonts, with mammaliforms populating Pangea some 235 million years ago, and mammalia in the middle Jurassic, 170 million years ago, when we have this view of the world: Palaeos: Page not found
quote: And the earliest fossil placental mammal is 125 million years old. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...20425_firstmammal.html
quote: We also see early primates evolving in the late cretaceous, that period before the end of the dinosaurs. Palaeos: Page not found
quote: And the oldest fossil primate-like mammal is some 70 million years old, so the 66 million years for mammals is incorrect. I also expect these ages to be pushed back as more fossils are found (new finds can't make the earliest mammal occur later, eh?). http://www.leeds.ac.uk/chb/lectures/anthl_09.html
quote:(color for emphasis) So sometime in the Oligocene ... that's the time frame. Oligocene - Wikipedia
quote:(color for emphasis) Palaeos: Page not found
quote: But Africa is already separated from South America and Australia, so there is no land bridge path from that end. http://www.noneotheabove.com/articles/earth.html
quote: Thus we can pretty well eliminate any land bridges, and I am skeptical about islands. To consider rafting we need to look at current patterns, and thus, perhaps, the most significant element is that the Antarctic Circumpolar Current flows for the first time around Antarctica, thus creating a strong flow from west to east: Antarctic Circumpolar Current - Wikipedia
quote: This is an extremely powerful and constant current, and it sets up the South Atlantic Gyre, which today is composed of the Antarctic Circumpolar Current, the Benguela Current up the west coast of Africa, the South Equatorial Current that flows from Africa west to South America just below the equator, and the Brazil Current that flows down the east coast of South America. The rafters then would have to use the South Equatorial Current to "go with the flow" from Africa to SA. Curiously, when we look up at that last map again, we see that at the equator the distance in the Oligocene from Africa to SA was nowhere near as far as it is today. Now that we are looking at current patterns, we can eliminate North America, as the rafters would need to travel from the north flowing north atlantic gyre (Gulf stream anyone?) through the doldrums to get to the south atlantic gyre, or take the pacific side and end up out in mid pacific from the north flowing south pacific gyre and the likely westward flowing current between N&S America. Conclusion: rafting from Africa to S. America is feasible. The next thing then is to consider what kinds of animals are capable of surviving rafting trips, and which are not, and does this also match the pattern of species. Is that enough for now? Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : subtitle by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Engineer, interesting question.
I have some doubts about the ark theory, especially with animals crossing oceans to get to their present habitat after leaving the ark. Evolutionists assume they can raft however, and solve one of my most perplexing issues with ark theory..... The problem with the ark theory is also "why there and only there" for some species, as all lands are equally accessible by the usual "rafting" explanations. In discussing this with a young YEC once he proposed that Koalas floated on rafts of eucalyptus trees, thus ending up in Australia with the single food in their diet that does not show up anywhere else on earth. This was called the "Magic Koala" theory. There are many such links between species that are interdependent. Co-evolution explains them quite nicely, also over many many generations. So if we can dispense with the "after the ark raft" theoretics for now, I think the point to focus on is what animals are capable of rafting, which are not, and does this pattern appear in the fossil record. Enjoy. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Continents in the late Eocene, as reconstructed by geologists. Not bad for amateurs ... Seriously though, they should show the antarctic polar current. This would also result in climate change and probably some humdinger storms, such as we are expecting from global climate change now. Storms also provide fresh water and travel from Africa westward.
Not too bad, especially given the possibility of "island hopping" and the direction of the prevailing currents. I don't think islands are necessary. I look at the islands in your diagram and wonder where they went. Enjoy. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
So currently what is the rate of continental drift in South America? Irrelevant. Also off topic, yes?
thanks for putting that together. It was a lot of work I'm sure. So do you concur that the rafting hypothesis is viable? Or are you trying to change the subject because you can't show that it is implausible? Shall we discuss the survivability of different kinds of animals swept out to sea on large rafts of vegetation during storms? Ever heard of fishing monkeys?MSN | Outlook, Office, Skype, Bing, Breaking News, and Latest Videos The ones that can survive the trip are the ones best able to take advantage of the opportunities around them. Enjoy. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Island hopping would reduce the distance to travel. Hence, more animals can be considered. But if you can show the concept is feasible without hypothetical islands (that there are no record of), the argument is stronger. What happened to the hypothetical islands? Enjoy. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
As to their water requirements, until vegetation sprouted, saltwater would taste just like normal water to a severely dehydrated monkey. Another way to get moisture - as water itself is not necessary to be hydrated - is to eat raw fish.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
(1) rubber ducks
http://rubaduck.com/...s-200302-duckies_around_the_world.htm
quote: So for a good average speed you can figure the great circle route. It also looks like the surface travels faster than the main current or the ducks (and hence rafters) are assisted by prevailing winds -- looks like you can double your speed estimates for rafts. (2) Steve Callahan, Adrift: Seventy-six Days Lost at Sea: Amazon.com
quote: His sailboat sank so fast he was not able to provision the raft or even grab navigation gear. What provisions he had were soon gone, and he was left with his wits for 3-1/2 months. http://www.inspirationline.com/EZINE/27SEP2004.htm
quote: I remember reading about it when he was rescued. So yes, primates can survive drifting on rafts for a long time. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : format by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
A pregnant female with a long enough gestation period might suffice. Primates generally and monkeys in particular are social animals, traveling in troops, sharing resources. Thus it is likely that if ONE primate S.American monkey ancestor reached the "new" world, then it is likely that several did. There has not been one piece of evidence that shows that such an event was impossible. Enjoy. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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