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Author Topic:   How did Monkeys get to South America?
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 3 of 137 (499007)
02-15-2009 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Engineer
02-15-2009 10:09 PM



This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 27 of 137 (499131)
02-16-2009 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by bluegenes
02-16-2009 4:44 PM


Rafting from Africa is feasible
Hey bluegenes, this is a general answer, but I started with you due a pet peeve on genetic dating"
Sorry for the length folks, but I'm just following the evidence.
The probable reason for the question is that the timing of separation is considered to be before the date of ~ 40,000,000 yrs that genetics gives to the divergence of New World Monkeys from the rest of us.
As always, I am skeptical of timing from genetic studies. Evolutionary rates can change significantly, and thus to be valid any genetic analysis needs to be tied to fossil evidence where the dates are known, which of course renders the need for genetic dates irrelevant.
Thus I prefer to see fossil dates for related organisms where the relationships can be confirmed\validated by the genetic relationships.
Personally, I consider genetic "dating" as valid as stratigraphy - it is "soft dating," a relative dating method that serves to confirm the "hard dating" of fossils by radiometric or other means of achieving accurate physical dates.
We also need to visit the statement of Message 1 (as currently revised}:
The first mammals did not show up until 66 million years ago.
This of course depends on what you define as "mammal" but there is fossil evidence that mammals are older than that, with Therapsids dating to 270 million years, by 250 million years ago we had Cynodonts, with mammaliforms populating Pangea some 235 million years ago, and mammalia in the middle Jurassic, 170 million years ago, when we have this view of the world:
Palaeos: Page not found
quote:

And the earliest fossil placental mammal is 125 million years old.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...20425_firstmammal.html
quote:
"We found the earliest ancestor, perhaps a great uncle or aunt, or perhaps a great grandparent”albeit 125 million years removed”to all placental mammals," said Zhe-Xi Luo, a paleontologist at the Carnegie Museum of Natural History in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. "It is significant because a vast majority of mammals alive today are placentals."
We also see early primates evolving in the late cretaceous, that period before the end of the dinosaurs.
Palaeos: Page not found
quote:
Primates: Lemurs, monkeys, aye-ayes, Anglicans & apes.
Range: from the Late Cretaceous or early Paleocene.
Characters: Shortened rostrum; addition of hypocone & loss of paraconid from basic tribosphenic pattern; bunodont cusps; loss of at least 1 incisor and 1 premolar in all but most basal forms; orbits face anteriorly, with stereoscopic vision & well-developed vision; ethmoid exposed on orbital wall; postorbital bar; enlarged brain; floor of auditory bulla from petrosal; clavicle retained as prominent element of pectoral girdle; shoulder joint with broad mobility; digits 5/5; opposable digits; tactile pads at ends of digits; elongated hind limb; facultative bipedalism common; nail on hallux and other digits; herbivorous or omnivorous; 2 mammaries; 1-2 young per pregnancy; long gestation and developmental time; frequently highly social, with flexible dominance hierarchies; strongly adapted to arboreal life.
And the oldest fossil primate-like mammal is some 70 million years old, so the 66 million years for mammals is incorrect. I also expect these ages to be pushed back as more fossils are found (new finds can't make the earliest mammal occur later, eh?).
http://www.leeds.ac.uk/chb/lectures/anthl_09.html
quote:
The oldest fossil that anyone considers to be primate-like is a animal called Purgatorius ceratops, which consists of a single tooth found in late-Cretaceous rocks in Montana. This is dated to approximately 70 mya.
...
The first unequivocal primates occur about 50 mya. There are two main groups identified: Adapiformes which are usually considered to be ancestral to modern Strepsirhines; Tarsiiformes which are (mostly) considered to be early Haplorhines.
...
The distinction between Catarrhines and Platyrrhines occurred sometime in the Oligocene. However, there is a distinct shortage of fossils (isn't there always). Branisella is a good example of a New World Monkey. The African fossils from this period are almost all from the El Fayum valley in Egypt. The example here is Apidium.
There are a number of questions concerning New World Monkeys. South America was an island continent at this period, so where did they come from? Rafting or island hopping have been suggested. Also, primates die out in North America... Generalisations about Oligocene NWM are difficult to make because of a severe shortage of specimens. There is some indication that they may not have yet achieved full orbital closure and have more laterally directed orbits than extant species, but this is disputed.
(color for emphasis)
So sometime in the Oligocene ... that's the time frame.
Oligocene - Wikipedia
quote:
Mountain building in western North America continued, and the Alps started to rise in Europe as the African plate continued to push north into the Eurasian plate, isolating the remnants of the Tethys Sea. A brief marine incursion marks the early Oligocene in Europe. Oligocene marine exposures are rare in North America. There appears to have been a land bridge in the early Oligocene between North America and Europe since the faunas of the two regions are very similar. During sometime in the Oligocene, South America was finally detached from Antarctica and drifted north towards North America. It also allowed the Antarctic Circumpolar Current to flow, rapidly cooling the continent.
(color for emphasis)
Palaeos: Page not found
quote:
There was an increase in volcanic activity, and plate tectonic movement, as India collided with Asia. The last remnant of the supercontinent of Gondwanaland broke up as Australia and South America both separated from Antarctica.
The Oligocene also marked the start of a generalized cooling, with glaciers forming in Antarctica for the first time during the Cenozoic. The increase in ice sheets led to a fall in sea level. The tropics diminished, giving way to cooler woodlands and grasslands. Although there was a slight warming period in the late Oligocene, the overall cooling trend was to continue, culminating in the Ice Ages of the Pleistocene.
But Africa is already separated from South America and Australia, so there is no land bridge path from that end.
http://www.noneotheabove.com/articles/earth.html
quote:

Thus we can pretty well eliminate any land bridges, and I am skeptical about islands.
To consider rafting we need to look at current patterns, and thus, perhaps, the most significant element is that the Antarctic Circumpolar Current flows for the first time around Antarctica, thus creating a strong flow from west to east:
Antarctic Circumpolar Current - Wikipedia
quote:
The Antarctic Circumpolar Current (ACC) is an ocean current that flows from west to east around Antarctica. An alternate name for the ACC is the West Wind Drift. The ACC is the dominant circulation feature of the Southern Ocean and, at approximately 125 Sverdrups, the largest ocean current [1]. It keeps warm ocean waters away from Antarctica, enabling that continent to maintain its huge ice sheet.
This is an extremely powerful and constant current, and it sets up the South Atlantic Gyre, which today is composed of the Antarctic Circumpolar Current, the Benguela Current up the west coast of Africa, the South Equatorial Current that flows from Africa west to South America just below the equator, and the Brazil Current that flows down the east coast of South America.
The rafters then would have to use the South Equatorial Current to "go with the flow" from Africa to SA. Curiously, when we look up at that last map again, we see that at the equator the distance in the Oligocene from Africa to SA was nowhere near as far as it is today.
Now that we are looking at current patterns, we can eliminate North America, as the rafters would need to travel from the north flowing north atlantic gyre (Gulf stream anyone?) through the doldrums to get to the south atlantic gyre, or take the pacific side and end up out in mid pacific from the north flowing south pacific gyre and the likely westward flowing current between N&S America.
Conclusion: rafting from Africa to S. America is feasible.
The next thing then is to consider what kinds of animals are capable of surviving rafting trips, and which are not, and does this also match the pattern of species.
Is that enough for now?
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : subtitle

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by bluegenes, posted 02-16-2009 4:44 PM bluegenes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Engineer, posted 02-16-2009 9:57 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 30 of 137 (499135)
02-16-2009 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Engineer
02-16-2009 6:08 PM


The Magic Koala theory
Hi Engineer, interesting question.
I have some doubts about the ark theory, especially with animals crossing oceans to get to their present habitat after leaving the ark. Evolutionists assume they can raft however, and solve one of my most perplexing issues with ark theory.....
The problem with the ark theory is also "why there and only there" for some species, as all lands are equally accessible by the usual "rafting" explanations.
In discussing this with a young YEC once he proposed that Koalas floated on rafts of eucalyptus trees, thus ending up in Australia with the single food in their diet that does not show up anywhere else on earth. This was called the "Magic Koala" theory. There are many such links between species that are interdependent. Co-evolution explains them quite nicely, also over many many generations.
So if we can dispense with the "after the ark raft" theoretics for now, I think the point to focus on is what animals are capable of rafting, which are not, and does this pattern appear in the fossil record.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Darwinist, posted 02-16-2009 10:46 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 34 of 137 (499141)
02-16-2009 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Dr Adequate
02-16-2009 7:20 PM


non-island bio-geography?
Continents in the late Eocene, as reconstructed by geologists.
Not bad for amateurs ...
Seriously though, they should show the antarctic polar current. This would also result in climate change and probably some humdinger storms, such as we are expecting from global climate change now. Storms also provide fresh water and travel from Africa westward.
Not too bad, especially given the possibility of "island hopping" and the direction of the prevailing currents.
I don't think islands are necessary. I look at the islands in your diagram and wonder where they went.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 37 of 137 (499144)
02-16-2009 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Engineer
02-16-2009 9:57 PM


Re: Please watch the topic
So currently what is the rate of continental drift in South America?
Irrelevant. Also off topic, yes?
thanks for putting that together. It was a lot of work I'm sure.
So do you concur that the rafting hypothesis is viable? Or are you trying to change the subject because you can't show that it is implausible?
Shall we discuss the survivability of different kinds of animals swept out to sea on large rafts of vegetation during storms?
Ever heard of fishing monkeys?
MSN | Outlook, Office, Skype, Bing, Breaking News, and Latest Videos
The ones that can survive the trip are the ones best able to take advantage of the opportunities around them.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 63 of 137 (499192)
02-17-2009 7:16 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Darwinist
02-16-2009 10:46 PM


Re: The Magic Koala theory
Island hopping would reduce the distance to travel. Hence, more animals can be considered.
But if you can show the concept is feasible without hypothetical islands (that there are no record of), the argument is stronger. What happened to the hypothetical islands?
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 104 of 137 (499475)
02-18-2009 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Darwinist
02-18-2009 3:31 AM


As to their water requirements, until vegetation sprouted, saltwater would taste just like normal water to a severely dehydrated monkey.
Another way to get moisture - as water itself is not necessary to be hydrated - is to eat raw fish.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 106 of 137 (499479)
02-18-2009 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by kuresu
02-18-2009 8:47 AM


Two Points
(1) rubber ducks
http://rubaduck.com/...s-200302-duckies_around_the_world.htm
quote:
The ducks take three years to circle around, East from the drop site to Alaska, then all the way West and South to Japan before turning back North and East, passing the original drop site and again landing in North America. Some ducks are even found in Hawaii. The National Oceanic & Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) has worked out that the ducks travel approximately 50% faster than the water in the current.
So for a good average speed you can figure the great circle route.
It also looks like the surface travels faster than the main current or the ducks (and hence rafters) are assisted by prevailing winds -- looks like you can double your speed estimates for rafts.
(2) Steve Callahan, Adrift: Seventy-six Days Lost at Sea:
Amazon.com
quote:
Steven Callahan"s dramatic tale of survival at sea was on the New York Times bestseller list for more than thirty-six weeks. In some ways the model for the new wave of adventure books, Adrift is an undeniable seafaring classic, a riveting firsthand account by the only man known to have survived more than a month alone at sea, fighting for his life in an inflatable raft after his small sloop capsized only six days out. "Utterly absorbing" (Newsweek), Adrift is a must-have for any adventure library.
His sailboat sank so fast he was not able to provision the raft or even grab navigation gear. What provisions he had were soon gone, and he was left with his wits for 3-1/2 months.
http://www.inspirationline.com/EZINE/27SEP2004.htm
quote:
But the thing that caught my eye was how he managed to keep himself going when all hope seemed lost, when there seemed no point in continuing the struggle, when he was suffering greatly, when his life raft was punctured and after more than a week struggling with his weak body to fix it, it was still leaking air and wearing him out to keep pumping it up. He was starved. He was desperately dehydrated. He was thoroughly exhausted. Giving up would have seemed the only sane option.
I remember reading about it when he was rescued. So yes, primates can survive drifting on rafts for a long time.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : format

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 136 of 137 (499826)
02-20-2009 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Blue Jay
02-19-2009 9:13 PM


Re: Rafting certainly happens!
A pregnant female with a long enough gestation period might suffice.
Primates generally and monkeys in particular are social animals, traveling in troops, sharing resources.
Thus it is likely that if ONE primate S.American monkey ancestor reached the "new" world, then it is likely that several did.
There has not been one piece of evidence that shows that such an event was impossible.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

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