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Author Topic:   The timeline of the Bible
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 3 of 316 (498893)
02-15-2009 1:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rrhain
02-14-2009 5:34 AM


Rrhain writes:
I say that while the Bible does not give a specific date, it does give a specific timeline which, through a process of simple addition, we can use to come up with a total amount of time for the existence of life, the universe, and everything
You said you dont want any arguments against a literal 6 days for the sake of the argument so i wont comment on that aspect. But i LOVE bible chronology and will only address chronology, biblical chronology will only be based on the existence of the human race though... i hope you realise that.
the bible does not explain with any detail the creation of the universe. It is a book about the history of Mankind. It doesnt tell us anything of the chronology of the creation of any planets or solar systems or stars or moons except to say that God was the creator of them.
Rhain writes:
Genesis 5 counts up the generations from the first human, Adam, to Noah which gives 956 years
I've got a slightly different figure. when I added up the years from Adam to the birth of Noah I got 1,056 years. Its from Gen5:1-29 & 7:6
Adam was 130yrs old when Seth was born so we start the counting at 130.
From Seth to the birth of Enosh = 130yrs
to Kenan = 90yrs
to Mahalalel 70yrs
to Jared 65 yrs
to Enoch 163 yrs
to Methuselah 65yrs
to Lamech 187 yrs
to Noah 182 yrs
The flood came in the 600th year of Noahs life so if we add up all the above and add the 600 years we get
Total 1,656 years from Adam until the Flood
Then using the birth charts from the 3 sons of Noah you can work out where we are in the steam of time of mankinds creation. Its in Gen11:10 & 12:4
the first son was born 2 yrs after the flood, Arpachshad, = 1658yrs
Birth of Shelah + 35 yrs = 1693 yrs
Birth of Eber + 30ys = 1723 yrs
Birth of Peleg = 34yrs = 1757 yrs
Birth of Reu + 30yrs = 1787 yrs
Birth of Serug + 32yrs = 1816 yrs
birth of Nahor + 30yrs = 1847 yrs
birth of Tehrah + 29yrs = 1876 yrs
Tehrah died at 205 yrs of age when Abraham was 75yrs old.
This brings us to 2,081yrs from the creation of Adam to the death of Tehrah.
I have to go to dinner, but i'll come back later and add some more.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Rrhain, posted 02-14-2009 5:34 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Rrhain, posted 02-15-2009 4:04 PM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 7 of 316 (499041)
02-16-2009 5:16 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Rrhain
02-15-2009 4:04 PM


Rrhain writes:
quote:Tehrah died at 205 yrs of age when Abraham was 75yrs old.
Where do you find this? Indeed, the text says that Terah died at 205, but it doesn't say that Abraham was 75 at the time. It simply says that Terah died at 205:
And, in fact, that would be a severe mathematical error on the part of the Bible to have Abraham born when Terah was 70 and yet be only 75 when Terah died 135 years later.
In fact, the text indicates that Abraham leaves Haran while Terah is still alive:
Gen 11:31-32 ends with Terah traveling to Canaan with Abram, and died in Haran at the age of 205yrs old.
Gen 12;1-4 says that God made a covenant with Abraham and told him to leave Haran. Vs 4 says that he was 75yrs of Age.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Rrhain, posted 02-15-2009 4:04 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Rrhain, posted 02-16-2009 6:28 AM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 9 of 316 (499132)
02-16-2009 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Rrhain
02-16-2009 6:28 AM


Rrhain writes:
Yes. I guess I'm not sure what you're getting at, then. Does it matter how old Terah was when he died?
it simply adds to the timeline; from the beginning of the flood to the death of Terah are a total of 427yrs.
Here is the timeline using the time period between events
from Adam to the flood are a total of 1,656years
to the Abrahamic Coventant another 427yrs (this came into effect after the death of Terah)
to the exodus from Egypt another 430 yrs
to the temple construction another 479 yrs
to the division of the kingdom into the Nth and Sth 37 yrs
to the babylonian destrution of judah in 607bce 390 yrs
to the release from Babylon in 537 bce 70yrs
to the rebuilding of the Walls of Jerusalem another 82 yrs
to the baptism of Jesus 483 yrs
to today 2008yrs + 1 mth & 17 days
if you add the number of years between these events we are
approximately 6062 yrs from the time of Adams creation.
this figure in no way makes the 'earth' 6062 yrs old though becuase the bible chronology is purely based on 'mankinds' history and not the history of the physical earth itself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Rrhain, posted 02-16-2009 6:28 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Rrhain, posted 02-20-2009 11:36 PM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 11 of 316 (499862)
02-21-2009 5:11 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Rrhain
02-20-2009 11:36 PM


Rrhain writes:
It would be quite the feat for 135 years to pass between the birth of Abraham and the establishment of the covenant and yet Abraham be only 75 at the time.
Why?
Rrhain writes:
11:26 And Terah lived seventy years, and begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran.
..
12:4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.
From the end of the flood is 2+35+30+34+30+32+30+29+70+75 = 367 years.
you are missing a huge chunk of time here.
where are the years between Abraham being born and Tehrah dieing?
If Tehrah was 205yrs when he died, you are missing 130 odd years because the covenent came into effect AFTER the death of Tehrah and he died when Abraham was 75 yrs old
Gen11 ends with Tehrah's death and Gen 12 begins with Abraham being told to leave for the land of Cannan.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Rrhain, posted 02-20-2009 11:36 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by PaulK, posted 02-21-2009 5:29 AM Peg has replied
 Message 16 by Rrhain, posted 02-21-2009 6:40 AM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 13 of 316 (499866)
02-21-2009 5:42 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by PaulK
02-21-2009 5:29 AM


lets do the math
Terah from the age of 70yrs begins to have kids
Terah at age 205yrs dies
When Terah died at 205, Abraham was only 75, so Terah must have been 130 when Abraham was born.
205-75=130
so Abraham was born when Tehra was 130 yrs old, not 70.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by PaulK, posted 02-21-2009 5:29 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by PaulK, posted 02-21-2009 5:49 AM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 15 of 316 (499872)
02-21-2009 6:21 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by PaulK
02-21-2009 5:49 AM


PaulK writes:
The Bible doesn't say that. Where does it come from ?
Gen 12:4
PaulK writes:
It doesn't say begins, and the first named (and therefore presumably the oldest) is Abram. Looks as if Abram is born by the time Terah is 70.
Abraham is probably mentioned first because he's the most famous and the forefather of the Moses people. Its most likley that Haran was the firstborn because his daughter was old enough to marry Terah’s other son Nahor. Ge 11:29.
PaulK writes:
Oh, since the infallible Peg says so I guess the Bible got it wrong.
would you like a lolly?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by PaulK, posted 02-21-2009 5:49 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Rrhain, posted 02-21-2009 7:04 AM Peg has replied
 Message 19 by PaulK, posted 02-21-2009 7:11 AM Peg has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 17 of 316 (499876)
02-21-2009 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Rrhain
02-21-2009 6:40 AM


Rrhain writes:
He lives for 70 years. At that point, Abraham is born.
Genesis 11:26 And Terah lived seventy years, and begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran.
75 more years pass. Abraham is now 75 and Terah is now 145. God makes a covenant with Abraham and tells him to get the hell out of the city. He does so.
Genesis 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
12:4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.
Terah continues to live and dies 60 years later at 205 in the same city that Abraham left.
Im only going to reply to this because its pointless going any further until we get this sorted out.
At Genesis 11:31-32 'Terah took Abram and Lot...and they went with him out of Ur to go to the land of Cannan, ..They cam to Haran and took up dwelling there.
Vs32: And the days of Terah came to be 205 years then terah died in Haran'
Now moving on from Terahs death, Genesis 12 now reports that God tells Abraham to leave Ur and go to Cannan.
So tell me how Genesis 11 comes after Genesis 12. Becasue you seem to have switched the two around and put Gen 12 before the death of Terah which is reported in Gen 11.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Rrhain, posted 02-21-2009 6:40 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Rrhain, posted 02-21-2009 7:20 AM Peg has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 22 of 316 (500016)
02-22-2009 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Rrhain
02-21-2009 7:04 AM


ok, we are obviously reading the account differently which is why we are getting different figures.
Gen11:27-32 writes:
And this is the history of Te′rah. Te′rah became father to A′bram, Na′hor and Ha′ran; and Ha′ran became father to Lot.
28Later Ha′ran died while in company with Te′rah his father in the land of his birth, in Ur of the Chalde′ans.
29And A′bram and Na′hor proceeded to take wives for themselves. The name of A′bram’s wife was Sar′ai, while the name of Na′hor’s wife was Mil′cah, the daughter of Ha′ran, the father of Mil′cah and father of Is′cah.
30But Sar′ai continued to be barren; she had no child.
31After that Te′rah took A′bram his son and Lot, the son of Ha′ran, his grandson, and Sar′ai his daughter-in-law, the wife of A′bram his son, and they went with him out of Ur of the Chalde′ans to go to the land of Ca′naan. In time they came to Ha′ran and took up dwelling there.
32And the days of Te′rah came to be two hundred and five years. Then Te′rah died in Ha′ran.
Haran becoming a father before Abram and Nahor are even married indicates that he was the eldest son because the custom in those days was that the eldest married first...its also seen in the account about Jacod being given Leah to marry instead of Rachel, Leah was the oldest and her father said it wasnt customary for the younger to be married first.
VS 31...After Harans death they all left Ur together to travel to Canaan, but they stayed in Haran for some time first and then the death of Terah is mentioned...while they are still in Haran.
If he didnt die until later, why does his name disappear from the record at this point and not at some later point. Why is he no longer mentioned along with the rest of the family in the move to Canaan?
The way im understanding the story of Terah is that he moved all his family from their original home in Ur to move to Canaan, along the way, they stay over in Haran, but here the aged Terah dies and then Abraham and the family continues the journey to Canaan without Terah.
this is why i have added an additional 130 years to the timeline, because if Abraham didnt move on until after Terahs death, then Terah really was 205yrs old at the time of God making a coventant with him.
Gen 12:4 says that Abram was 75 yrs old when he left Haran.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Rrhain, posted 02-21-2009 7:04 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Rrhain, posted 02-23-2009 2:13 AM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 25 of 316 (500109)
02-23-2009 3:43 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Rrhain
02-23-2009 2:13 AM


Rrhain writes:
Incorrect. You're confusing sons with daughters. Abraham is listed first because Abraham is the eldest.
Ok, but does the bible say that Abram is the oldest?
Rrhain writes:
Irrelevant. Once Abraham is born, Terah is of no consequence. Terah is 70 when Abraham is born because Abraham is listed first. Therefore, the covenant happens 145 years after the birth of Terah.
so even though the account mentions the Terah died and then Abram left for Canaan, You are still convinced that Terah died after Abram left for Canaan? Why?
Please show me scripturally how you draw this conclusion.
Rrhain writes:
Adam is described as dying AND THEN Seth is described as siring Enos. But you don't interpret the birth of Enos as taking place AFTER the death of Adam, do you? So why do you interpret the covenant taking place AFTER the death of Terah when the phrasing is identical to all the begats earlier?
So given all this precedent where the death of someone is not taken to mean that all passages after that description happen after the death, why are you making an exception for this one?
the difference here is that Adam is said to die 800 years AFTER the birth of Seth. It doest say that he fathered Seth at age 130 then died. It says 'the days of Adam after he fathered Seth came to be 800yrs'
this is completely different to what is being said about Terah.
The accounts are completely different. one is a record of the family line, the other is a story of one man Terah and his travels.
Rrhain writes:
Thus, the idea that you, Peg, put forward that the Bible doesn't say life, the universe, and everything is only 6000 years old is shown to be false.
i think we'll agree to disagree on that one.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Rrhain, posted 02-23-2009 2:13 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Rrhain, posted 02-23-2009 5:24 AM Peg has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 28 of 316 (500166)
02-23-2009 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Coragyps
02-23-2009 7:53 AM


Coragyps writes:
What is it, Peg, that blinds you to the obvious so terribly? You've made up your mind, so now it's unchangeable? Or you just can't force yourself to say "Oh, I see now!"? Or the Cousin of Morton's Demon has you in his grip? Peg, you need to explain how to decide which parts of this biblical timeline are literal, while other parts are figurative. It's confusing to we uninitiated.
Tell me how you read the account...
Genesis Chapter 11.
Gen 11:26And Te′rah lived on for seventy years, after which he became father to A′bram, Na′hor and Ha′ran.
27'And this is the history of Te′rah.
Te′rah became father to A′bram, Na′hor and Ha′ran; and Ha′ran became father to Lot. 28Later Ha′ran died while in company with Te′rah his father in the land of his birth, in Ur of the Chalde′ans.'
29And A′bram and Na′hor proceeded to take wives for themselves.
31After that Te′rah took A′bram his son and Lot, the son of Ha′ran, his grandson, and Sar′ai his daughter-in-law, the wife of A′bram his son, and they went with him out of Ur of the Chalde′ans to go to the land of Ca′naan. In time they came to Ha′ran and took up dwelling there. 32And the days of Te′rah came to be two hundred and five years. Then Te′rah died in Ha′ran.'
Genesis Chapter 12
12 And God proceeded to say to A′bram: Go your way out of your country and from your relatives and from the house of your father to the country that I shall show you; 2and I shall make a great nation out of you and I shall bless you and I will make your name great; and prove yourself a blessing. 3And I will bless those who bless you, and him that calls down evil upon you I shall curse, and all the families of the ground will certainly bless themselves by means of you.
4At that A′bram went just as God had spoken to him, and Lot went with him. And A′bram was 75 years old when he went out from Ha′ran. 5So A′bram took Sar′ai his wife and Lot the son of his brother and all the goods that they had accumulated and the souls whom they had acquired in Ha′ran, and they got on their way out to go to the land of Ca′naan. Finally they came to the land of Ca′naan.
So that is the account,
Which is correct do you think?
A. The whole family travel to Canaan without Terah
B. The whole family travel to Canaan with Terah
C. Terah dies in Haran and then Abraham Travels to Canaan
D. Terah doesnt die and Abraham travels to Canaan
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Coragyps, posted 02-23-2009 7:53 AM Coragyps has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Rrhain, posted 02-25-2009 6:09 AM Peg has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 58 of 316 (501959)
03-08-2009 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by kbertsche
03-08-2009 8:30 AM


Re: Cultural and Historical Context!
kbertsche writes:
As I've said repeatedly, they DO NOT mean two different things. They mean an ancestor/descendent relationship in both cases. In one case it may be father/son and in another it may be great-grandfather/great-grandson. This is not an inconsistency or a special pleading. In both cases "begat" means "ancestored". The exact same words mean the exact same thing in both cases.
except that in the case of Seth, he really was one of Adams own sons.
Eve named him Seth because, as she said, 'God has appointed another seed in place of Abel, because Cain killed him.'
this along with the fact that Lukes geneology lists Seth as the 'Son of Adam'

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by kbertsche, posted 03-08-2009 8:30 AM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Rrhain, posted 03-09-2009 6:10 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 62 by kbertsche, posted 03-09-2009 10:14 AM Peg has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 94 of 316 (503259)
03-17-2009 5:14 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Daniel4140
03-14-2009 9:36 PM


Re: Terah-Abraham
Peg gives in when arguments go round and round for too long
Im so glad someone finally got it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Daniel4140, posted 03-14-2009 9:36 PM Daniel4140 has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 203 of 316 (505059)
04-07-2009 2:45 AM


So Where Are We?
after so many pages of arguing over...umm... something or other
has anyone worked out where we are in the stream of time yet???

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Rrhain, posted 04-07-2009 3:08 AM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 206 of 316 (505065)
04-07-2009 3:44 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by Rrhain
04-07-2009 3:08 AM


Re: So Where Are We?
Rrhain writes:
We're still at only about 6000 years. Depending upon a few possible ways of assigning time, it's give or take fewer than 200 years. We're certainly nowhere near the amount of time life, the universe, and everything has been around.
does that mean you've changed your belief in a 6,000 year old earth?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Rrhain, posted 04-07-2009 3:08 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Rrhain, posted 04-11-2009 5:10 AM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 220 of 316 (505826)
04-17-2009 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Rrhain
04-11-2009 5:10 AM


Your opening Post
Rrhain writes:
Huh? Where did I say I thought the earth was only 6000 years old?
I get that impression from your opening post...
Rrhain writes:
It seems that multiple people in this forum have claimed that the Bible does not indicate that the earth is about 6000 years old. It appears that they make this claim based upon a couple trains of thought:
1) The Bible does not give a specific date as if we should expect to find a passage saying, "The Earth was created on Sunday the 21st of October, 4004 B.C., at exactly 9:00 A.M., because God liked to get work done early in the morning while he was feeling fresh."
2) There is some nebulous, non-specificity to the timeline in the Bible.
I say that while the Bible does not give a specific date, it does give a specific timeline which, through a process of simple addition, we can use to come up with a total amount of time for the existence of life, the universe, and everything. If we can then hook this timeline on an actual date, we can then determine exactly how old everything is supposed to be.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Rrhain, posted 04-11-2009 5:10 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Rrhain, posted 04-18-2009 4:09 AM Peg has replied

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