How did Monkeys get to South America?

How did new world monkeys get to South America?I ask this question for both evolutionists and creationists.Creationists get a little help from God, how about evolutionists?Addendum 1Let me please explain the dilemma. South America and Africa separated around 160 million years ago. The first mammals did not show up until 66 million years ago. The Oglicene period (about 45 million years ago) is when monkeys first appeared in South America.To explain this, evolutionists propose that monkeys, frogs, and some reptiles rafted to South America from Africa about 45 million or less years ago when the continents were supposedly closer together than the current distance of 1700 miles, though the journey for south america was already about 3/4 of the way done chronologically:Frogs rafted, too - john hawks weblogfrom source:

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There is one inescapable conclusion: Thirty-five million years ago, a bunch of ancient monkeys got on a raft and sailed to South America. That's the date that comes from molecular comparisons (e.g., Schrago and Russo 2003). The earliest fossil monkeys in South America are of Late Oligocene age (Branisella boliviana), but they anatomically resemble Late Eocene monkeys from Africa (Takai et al. 2000), suggesting an earlier arrival.

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Whoaaa and that comes from a scientist on the paleoanthropology payroll...Imagine monkeys having to cross the atlantic on a matt of moss and tree debris! They just drift listlessly at sea with no water for weeks, and perhaps months.How about this "raft story" that went 40 days and 40 nights: So how did the world's animals get back to their former environments from Ararat? They just rafted..... Wow that made it a lot simpler!Edited by Engineer, : added addendum 1Edited by Engineer, : No reason given.Edited by Engineer, : No reason given.

So you are not proposing a continental bridge across Antarctica, travel through North America, or a separate evolution for south american monkeys.What would cause a mega-continent to hold together for so long and then suddenly (relatively speaking) drift thousands of miles apart? Also, such an explosive speciation timewise among all animals in South America including boas?Are there any species in South America that match species in Africa with the exception of humans and other plants and animals that could have "grown their way" or migrated across the Bering Straits?Edited by Engineer, : No reason given.

your answer is the closest to current evolutionary views. I will restate the OP, becasue so many people are confusing the issues.

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Yes it seems they rafted. How do you think they did it? Did Noah make a few stops?

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I don't know.

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I don't see or understand the alternate theory you have. Or do you not have one but feel you need to not believe something that has been researched and been presented as a viable theory.

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I have some doubts about the ark theory, especially with animals crossing oceans to get to their present habitat after leaving the ark. Evolutionists assume they can raft however, and solve one of my most perplexing issues with ark theory.....

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If you are going to say something is not a viable theory you need to present something in opposition to that theory.

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Well, actually this evolutionary explanation kind of helps out the arkers. and how about a super-explosion of speciation after a so-called flood -- kind of like south america after the oglicene period but biggie-sized? That helps reduce the number of animals needed on board the ark.

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What is your opposing explanation. To attack something as untrue and to not have an alternative is not just bad form, but lazy and stupid.

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I'm not attacking it. I think it's kind of humorous actually. It seems evolutionists are doing the work for creationists and solving the creationists' problems.

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Engineer, when people have replied to an O.P., does it really make sense to change the content? Why not continue further down the thread?

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I think it makes sense to clarify the OP because the responses were not connected very well. Maybe it's my fault for not stating the issues. I just assumed everyone knew them.For example:

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This breakup began some 170Ma ago, and the atlantic opened up around 110Ma ago so there has been plenty of time for dramatic speciation. Which is just what we see in the very different new and old world monkeys. Other breakups such as Australia and South America from Antarctica, India from Africa and Madagascar from India occurred later and leave their own marks in the bio-geographic record.

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Say What??? Monkeys didn't show up in South America until the late Oglicene some 40 million years ago.

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from reading your posts I see you probably would try to dispute continental drift, no matter what the evidence.

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So how close was South America to Africa in the late Oglicene? Were trade winds flowing from west to east as they do today, pushing floating debris to the east?http://www.sciencedaily.com/articles/j/jet_stream.htm

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If the original poster is a yec and does not believe in continental drift, than the whole thread is useless because he will counter our arguments with some bizarre yec bs.

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It is important to know if he is a yec and/or does not believe in the facts of continental drift in order to decide whether discussion with him is worth the effort.

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ok I'm not a yec.South America was closer to Africa 40 million years ago, but they separated-apart some 160 million years ago (this is 4x as long). Wouldn't it be fair to assume south america was about 3/4 the distance from africa that it is today? What justifies it being closer?When Christopher Columbus sailed to America in a sea-worthy sailing vessel using a compass against the trade winds it took about a month. How well would a monkey-manned raft fare out on the big blue while crossing probably several hundred miles (or more) on sea currents which often follow coastlines, with no water to drink, while fighting off sea predators out there in the hot sun?

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You do not say why they should have "no water",

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Salt water is no good to drink. I think you know this already.

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Provide any calculations backing up your time scale.

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I assumed a sail boat is faster than rafting. How fast do you think an ocean current moves?

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What, all of them? Across the modern distances separating continents? All in a mere 4500 years? Without this happening once in recorded history? Without leaving anyone behind? Apparently not one single species --- nor individual --- among the platyrrhine monkey missed getting on a raft. Nor the sloths, or the armadillos, or the tapirs, or the distinctive groups of freshwater fish ...

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Yeah, they had to make a round trip. You do have a point. Apparantly the return trip is easier, from the map. The evolution approach only requires monkeys and rodents on board.

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Some rafts of flotsam, if they are washed out of rivers during storms and caught in ocean currents, can be more than a mile across.

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So who even needs an ark anymore? They can float on massive islands of debris.

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Sloth's walking across many different habitats from Ararat to western Africa, and then rafting, all within a few hundred years, then evolving rapidly into many different species of sloth over a few thousand years is like tossing a coin and getting heads 100,000 times consecutively.

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How about speciation on steroids? ;-)

thanks for putting that together. It was a lot of work I'm sure. So currently what is the rate of continental drift in South America? I think I can find it, but thought I'd ask anyway.

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You want to dispute this theory. People have given you the particulars of the theory and you continue to imply that you think it is stupid. Just because you don't agree with a scientific theory doesn't make it wrong.
You have no alternatives. So how can you continue to question it.

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As for

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When Christopher Columbus sailed to America in a sea-worthy sailing vessel using a compass against the trade winds it took about a month. How well would a monkey-manned raft fare out on the big blue while crossing probably several hundred miles (or more) on sea currents which often follow coastlines, with no water to drink, while fighting off sea predators out there in the hot sun?
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this has been addressed in a previous post, but you seem to be too obtuse to understand, or are just providing more evidence that you are a troll with an agenda that refuses to consider anything other than your preconceived ideas.
As Sherlock Holmes said "Once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains - no matter how implausible - must be the truth."

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Well I am sorry you are offended, but there are some hard-core evolutionists out there that think the raft theory borders on ridiculous. They propose, for example, multiple origin of monkeys from a common ancestor yet undiscovered.I know you don't like the tenor of my statements, but I hear the same kind of stuff from Jesus-Mythers (that say a teacher named Jesus never existed), no matter what I show them, and they are a heck of a lot less polite than I am. But that is not the subject of this post.I think it is humorous for evolutionists to defend a bunch of mindless monkeys on some freedom flotila bound for South America. The ocean is a harsh environment for seafarers. People don't survive very long on life rafts. Maybe monkeys can do better though.Edited by Engineer, : fixed typo.

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Back in message #10 I asked you for your estimate of the age of the earth.

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I don't know the age of the earth whether it's ten thousand or 10 billion. I suspect it's a lot older than 10 thousand years though, unless the creator wants to deliberately trick people into thinking it's older. I don't think He's a trickster.

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You have tried to duck the question.

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Sorry, my in box is full. I don't mean to put you off. I'll have to discuss dogs with you someday, and why they can still breed with the australian dingo -- another topic.

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This is an important question for the current topic, as it directly impacts the path monkeys took to South America.

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ok.

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If you believe the age of the earth is ca. 6,000 years and that Noah's flood actually occurred, then there is no point in discussing science with you as your a priori belief has rendered science moot.

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As I've said, I don't know. I used to struggle with a young earth but I don't anymore.

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Miracles can do anything, on demand. Scientific evidence doesn't count for squat.

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and miracles don't count for anything until you need one.

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However, if you accept the evidence for an old earth then perhaps we can continue to discuss the topic of New vs. Old World Monkeys using scientific evidence.

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I can agree to an older earth, and I don't have a dog in the fight (pun intended).

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So which is it? Do you accept the scientific evidence for an old earth, or do you insist on believing in a young earth in spite of that evidence?

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no problemo.

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Or are you going to continue to ignore my question?

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ok, but don't knock yourself out too hard. I'll listen but I'm kind of by myself here. Sorry to put you off. I appreciate the participation, but I need a secretary.

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Just because you can not wrap your mind around it does not make it impossible. We are talking of a period of millions of years(at least we are, are you). TO state that it couldn't happen because you don't think so is extremely arrogant and not at all scientific.

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I'm not the only one to have issues with it. Some of your own have issues with it too.

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As for Jesus mythers I would love for you to start a thread so I can hear your evidence for a historical jesus. Because there isn't any that is contemporary to the time he was suppsed to have lived. If you have some it would be earth shattering and would completely change biblical scholarship. So I think no.
What is this the third topc you have brought up in this thread. Stick to the OP and open up new threads if you want a reaction on other subjects.

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That's funny. You can't even believe a real jewish teacher existed 2000 years ago that maybe somebody exagerrated into superman. But 40 million years ago some monkeys got on a raft and sailed off to south america. Now you make me feel better, because you are extremely arrogant. Edited by Engineer, : No reason given.

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Means you are a yec. Because only yec would question the scientific dating of the earth.

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I said I don't know the age of the earth. I wasn't there.The scientific age of the earth has changed a lot in my short lifetime, or I'm a half billon years older now.

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Yup I sure do.

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Because for the one there is scientific theory and observable evidence to show that it could happen.

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If you want a photograph of someone that lived 2000 years ago, then I should ask the same for monkeys going to south america.

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The other there are stories that were written at least 40 years after his supposed death.

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not to mention that we are writing about hypothetical monkeys 40 million years later.

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Nothing mentioned at the time of his supposed life. Nothing at all in the contemporary historical record.

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likewise for monkeys on a flotilla.

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You see that is the difference between science and faith. Science has observable quantifiable evidence, faith has, well, faith has faith.

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that's why faith is the same, but science keeps changing.Edited by Engineer, : No reason given.

I read kon tiki. The polynessions were very skilled seafarers with a little luck too.

ok folks, I'm using this tectonic model to caluate the speed of Brasilia, Brazil relative to Brazzaville, Congo:UNAVCOI get 12 mm/yr north.In 40 million years that would be a linear travel of:.12 cm/yr / [2.54 cm/in] / [12 in/ft] / [5250/ft/mile] * 40 x 10^6 years = 300 miles in 40 million years due north at linear speed. (*1)That doesn't do much for an east-west separation. I did not include any rotational components.Africa and South America are separated by at least 1700 miles.(*1) Math error is noted by Kuresu and corrected. 11:45 pm is past my bed time y'all. ;-)Edited by Engineer, : 12 mm is corrected to 1.2 cm