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Author Topic:   Evolution guided by god? Or a natural process?
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 4 of 44 (499118)
02-16-2009 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by inge1990
02-16-2009 2:56 PM


Now I was wondering if there are "arguments" (not scientifically proven) to support the statement that Evolution is guided by God and that is not just a natural process occuring after the creation.
I guess there are lots of arguments that are not scientifically proven. And, indeed, dumber than a bag of hammers.
They tend to take this form:
We can see that evolution happened. But I don't understand how such-and-such a thing evolved. So God must have intervened to make it evolve.
Logically, such arguments are puerile; biologically, they tend to be flawed in detail.
And theologically, they seem to be flawed as well. If evolution was God's idea, presumably he'd set it up so that it worked.
By analogy, if I write a computer program to perform some calculation, I don't write it so that every now and then I have to stop the program and rewrite the code in order to get it to do what I want. I'd be a pretty lame programmer if I did. Instead I write it so that I press the start button and the program does the rest.

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 Message 26 by JaysonD, posted 02-18-2009 12:07 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 13 of 44 (499204)
02-17-2009 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by inge1990
02-17-2009 6:49 AM


I had to choose a topic related to Darwin, and since I believe in the evolution theory, but also believe in God, my main focus is theistic evolution).
But it's a strange leap from belief in God to arguing that he guides evolution as a primary cause.
It's as though someone were to say; "I believe that the planets travel in ellipses; but because I believe in God, I want to prove that God, not the law of gravity and the laws of motion, causes them do so."
As I have pointed out, this is theologically dubious. If God created the Universe and its laws, surely it would be smarter of him to create it with laws that achieve his purpose, rather than laws that thwart his purpose and that he needs to overcome with a series of miracles.
The evidence for the evolution theory (to support that evolution is true), but after that I want to convince people that
evolution should be guided by god (The only thing I still need to work on).
Your terminology is wrong. The theory of evolution is the explanation of how evolution works: mutation, recombination, natural selection, genetic drift, and so forth. What you believe in is the fact of evolution; you are trying to argue against the theory of evolution.
It is argued that evolution would require some kind of guidance to guarantee that random variation combined with undirected selection would produce any particular creature. There are simply too many accidents involved without guidance.
"Too many"? Oh, but I forgot, you didn't require that the arguments should be scientific, or you'd need some sort of numbers in it.
Another argument I have (maybe not directly related to guidance by god, but to faith/belief), is a question James and Clifford ever proposed:
Must ALL your beliefs be dictated by the evidence you have and by nothing else?
Imagine if you were sitting on a jury and the counsel for the defense addressed that argument to you. Wouldn't you start to think that he must have an incredibly weak case?
---
Here's an argument against God acting as the primary cause of evolution. (Yes, I know it's not what you asked for, but it's what I've got.)
The history of evolution is littered with failures and dead-ends. We can point to species that didn't make it ... and genera ... and families ... and orders ... and classes ... and phyla. At the lowest level, we see lots of failed mutations that will never make it: mutations that lead to death or severe handicap or sterility. Does this look like the product of a perfect, all-knowing God, or of the hit-and-miss processes described by the theory of evolution?

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 18 of 44 (499214)
02-17-2009 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Fosdick
02-17-2009 11:53 AM


Re: Darwin's creator
Thanks for the Darwin lesson; you're very astute. And it should help inge1990, too, with his assignment. In fact, the quotes seem to be right on the mark in that regard. (If the Creator was important enough to be mentioned The Origin of Species, maybe He has something to do with evolution after all.)
But Darwin's arguing the exact opposite of what Inge wishes to argue:
To my mind it accords better with what we know of the laws impressed on matter by the Creator, that the production and extinction of the past and present inhabitants of the world should have been due to secondary causes, like those determining the birth and death of the individual.
That is, he's suggesting that God would set up the laws of Nature such that evolution would work without the necessity for divine intervention.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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 Message 17 by Fosdick, posted 02-17-2009 11:53 AM Fosdick has replied

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 39 of 44 (499626)
02-19-2009 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Rahvin
02-18-2009 12:54 AM


Re: LOL nothing like a little deja vu
And I even gave that specific argument as well:
But your specific argument is contrary to what Inge wants to say.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 40 of 44 (499627)
02-19-2009 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by JaysonD
02-18-2009 12:07 PM


I have to disagree here. You'd be an pretty extaordinary programmer if you only wrote programs which never needed any fixes or updates.
Well color me extraordinary.
And along the same lines this arguement fails in that it assumes god is either perfect and all-knowing or non-existant.
I thought that perfection and omniscience were part of the definition. In any case, I'm fairly sure that Inge is not a Gnostic arguing for the existence of a demiurge.

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 Message 26 by JaysonD, posted 02-18-2009 12:07 PM JaysonD has replied

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