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Author Topic:   The Bible's Flat Earth
shalamabobbi
Member (Idle past 2849 days)
Posts: 397
Joined: 01-10-2009


Message 5 of 473 (498975)
02-15-2009 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Granny Magda
02-14-2009 1:28 PM


I am engaged in this same discusion with a YUC on a different forum.
It began with his idea that starlight was created in situ in transit.
I suggested that since the stars are so far away we are unaware if they really exist as yet. And certainly super-novas cannot represent actual explosions but can be nothing more than mere light created in transit. So the stars apparently were not 'literally' created.
But the only reason to adopt this strained cosmological viewpoint in the first place is to support literalness.
Besides the book of Enoch which is fairly conclusive, the account in genesis supports this as well.
The earth and the canopy above it are created in Gen 1:1. Only later are the sun, moon, and stars placed within that canopy. This is an earth centric view, not a heliocentric view. To interpret genesis according to modern cosmology is to take it out of an ancient context. The modern definition of the word earth, a spherical planet, did not exist anciently. The word merely meant land.

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shalamabobbi
Member (Idle past 2849 days)
Posts: 397
Joined: 01-10-2009


Message 19 of 473 (499099)
02-16-2009 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Engineer
02-15-2009 9:56 PM


hi engineer
Look at revelation chapters 21 and 22.
21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
So apparently the entire universe goes along with the earth in its death throws..
And an entire new universe is created for the new earth when it is reborn..
22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light:..
If a spherical planet is what is intended here, what about the shadow from the light of God upon the darkside of the planet?

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shalamabobbi
Member (Idle past 2849 days)
Posts: 397
Joined: 01-10-2009


Message 22 of 473 (499122)
02-16-2009 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Buzsaw
02-16-2009 7:36 PM


Re: Round, Flat, Sphere, Curvlinear or what?
hey Buz,
back up to verse 18 in Is 24:
for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.

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shalamabobbi
Member (Idle past 2849 days)
Posts: 397
Joined: 01-10-2009


Message 27 of 473 (499140)
02-16-2009 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Peg
02-16-2009 10:02 PM


Re: The Literal Interpretation is a Flat Earth
yet it still doesnt say the earth is flat
find a verse that calls it flat...you cant because its not there.
You might want to take that up with these people:
http://www.alaska.net/...e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Peg, posted 02-16-2009 10:02 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
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shalamabobbi
Member (Idle past 2849 days)
Posts: 397
Joined: 01-10-2009


Message 33 of 473 (499198)
02-17-2009 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Peg
02-17-2009 3:06 AM


Re: The Literal Interpretation is a Flat Earth
hi Peg,
It's a pleasure to read Job in the present economy..
That's Job 26:7 btw (not 22:14)
What would your argument have been if you had been born 500 years ago?
Its interpretation and nothing more.
You don't perceive the irony here?
A question for you then about your view. If the scriptures you quote are correctly interpreted to whom were they written? Ancient people would have been confused and have failed to understand what was being said. If they were written for our age, do you imagine the purpose was to empower creationists to win debates on forums such as these?
Is that the purpose Job had in mind??
quote:
Job 26:1 But Job answered and said,
I think Job is replying to his buddies here in a 'forum debate' of his own prior to the invention of the internet.
The context issues here go beyond lexical reinterpretation.

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shalamabobbi
Member (Idle past 2849 days)
Posts: 397
Joined: 01-10-2009


Message 42 of 473 (499259)
02-17-2009 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Theodoric
02-17-2009 8:03 PM


Re: The Literal Interpretation is a Flat Earth
hi Theodoric,
Kanaph - means extremity.
Numbers 15:38 borders (of garments)
Ezekiel 7:2 four corners (of the earth)
Isaiah 11:12 four corners
Job 37:3 ends (of the earth)
Job 38:13 ends

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shalamabobbi
Member (Idle past 2849 days)
Posts: 397
Joined: 01-10-2009


Message 61 of 473 (499387)
02-18-2009 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Peg
02-18-2009 4:19 AM


Re: The Literal Interpretation is a Flat Earth
hi Peg,
Look back at post #10 by Meldinoor. Nobody is arguing with him. Even GM quoted part of it and agreed with it. And yet he obviously believes in God. No one is telling you whether or not to believe in God. The argument is about whether ancient peoples had a correct, current, modern understanding of cosmology. If you support this view then you must support the idea that they also had correct views of math, physics, chemistry, biology, etc.
Lucky for you they don't discuss these subjects very often in the bible then. Can you not see the absurdity of this position? What about Jacob using rods to cause the cattle to gender 'spotted and ring straked'? Not a very useful bit of biological science is it?
But to stay on topic, let's look at your use of the statement from the book of Job to support the idea that they had a correct view of the earth in space. Is it God talking in that verse? No it is Job talking in debate with his friends. So you think that because his statements are found within the bible that they become inerrant?? Is that how it works? So all the examples of murders, adulteries, thefts, etc are proper examples then of conduct for the rest of us? They are in the bible. But the words of Job happen to support your position with a little bit of luck. That is the beauty of things that are vague enough to be interpreted in different fashions isn't it? How 'bout that circle of the earth quote?
This seems to be the agreed upon interpretation of scholars:
Isaiah 40:22 "he sitteth upon the circle of the earth"
The word translated as "circle" in this verse is the Hebrew "Chuwg", which can mean circle, but can also mean circuit or compass. When occurring by itself, this word can also mean the vault of the heavens. This verse probably refers to the fact that God sits enthroned above the vault of the heavens, which encompasses the whole Earth.
This is a good article covering this topic.
The Infidel Guy Show
from the article:
Isa 40:22 "[It is] he that sitteth [which can also mean rests] upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in." This verse has occasioned considerable debate, as fundamentalist apologists have seized upon it as a foothold for their attempts to read modern cosmology anachronistically back into the text. According to [Henry] Morris this verse describes a spherical earth. The Hebrew word is hwg. I believe that this refers to the circular horizon that vaults itself over the earth to form a dome. (Stephen Meyers, "A Biblical Cosmology." Th.M. Thesis, Westminster Theological Seminary. 1989, pp. 63-69) Similar opportunistic use is made of Job 22:14, Thick clouds [are] a covering to him, that he seeth not; and he walketh in the circuit ( hwg ) of heaven. But it is vain. H wg is a primitive root to describe a circle:--compass, as per Strong’s Concordance. Notice that hwgis most definitely not a sphere. There are perfectly adequate Hebrew words for sphere or spheroid if that is what one wanted to mention. First, there is the word meaning ball, rwd duwr . Second, the word for pot, dwd , duwd , a pot for boiling,or, by resemblance of shape, a basket. Third, the word meaning round, tlglg gulgoleth, a skull (as round) or a head. Fourth, there is the Babylonia loan word llg galal, the verb to roll, based on the description of a type of water pot shaped like a human skull. And the Bible never once uses any of these fine words to describe the earth. Again, we find the natural denotation of the word in cognate cultures of the day.
that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in.
ICANT has made use of these words to suggest that the bible anticipated the BB theory. Nice. Except for the fact that God does this to make space for us to 'dwell in'. That dome thing again?
Is it you and buz and icant that are taking things out of context? and placing them within a 21st century context.
Why not rather view God as, like capt. Picard, under the prime directive?

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shalamabobbi
Member (Idle past 2849 days)
Posts: 397
Joined: 01-10-2009


Message 63 of 473 (499464)
02-18-2009 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Buzsaw
02-18-2009 5:42 PM


buz of la mancha
As for the corner/circle texts, the circle text implies that the corner text was idiomatic.
1 Sam 2:8 .. for the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and he hath set the world upon them.
And the pillar text implies the circle text was idiomatic..
And the earth like a giant bowling ball had three holes in it that accepted the three pillars (preventing them from splaying apart and requiring extra reinforcement and paying welders overtime wages) and made it extra stable..
and this that horses could be made more comfortable..
Hey Buz, I appreciate the sacrifice you made of an education to help out with your father's business. I for one would be willing to contribute some funds to enable you to attend college. Perhaps others will feel so inclined as well. Don't waste that life of yours tilting at windmills.

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shalamabobbi
Member (Idle past 2849 days)
Posts: 397
Joined: 01-10-2009


Message 79 of 473 (499633)
02-19-2009 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Peg
02-19-2009 6:19 AM


Re: The Literal Interpretation is a Flat Earth
the word circle has been translated from a hebrew word that can also mean sphere...this is significant.
The Hebrew word for circle is chuwg and has a primary meaning of circle (no lexicons I have read give the primary or secondary meaning as sphere).
When you trace back the lexicology of the word chuwg, you see that it is derived from a larger Hebrew word which means ‘a circle as drawn from a compass’.
ref:
Page not found -

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shalamabobbi
Member (Idle past 2849 days)
Posts: 397
Joined: 01-10-2009


Message 88 of 473 (499677)
02-19-2009 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Peg
02-19-2009 6:09 PM


Re: The Literal Interpretation is a Flat Earth
not to be picking on you Peg but buz seems to be napping..
Joshua 10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies.
So it is the sun that moves and not the earth, which is flat, and if you believe otherwise well, you are not a true believer..

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Replies to this message:
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shalamabobbi
Member (Idle past 2849 days)
Posts: 397
Joined: 01-10-2009


Message 93 of 473 (499690)
02-19-2009 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Peg
02-19-2009 7:22 PM


Re: The Literal Interpretation is a Flat Earth
Isaiah 38:8 Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.
So Isaiah can't decide whether the earth is a sphere and rotates or whether it is flat and the sun does the moving?

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shalamabobbi
Member (Idle past 2849 days)
Posts: 397
Joined: 01-10-2009


Message 103 of 473 (499734)
02-20-2009 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Peg
02-20-2009 1:30 AM


Re: The Literal Interpretation is a Flat Earth
You have to consider the immediate context of the scripture in question. Without it the scripture can mean anything.
We seem to be arguing for the same thing then, put the books of the bible into context of the times in which they were written. Stop ascribing knowledge to people who didn't have it.
In Joshua the sun stood still. So the earth by your argument stopped spinning? Allowing this miracle and an extension of it to include oceans, atmosphere, and no sense of deceleration, etc, we come to the moon next which also stopped moving. Of course if the earth is stopped spinning then for the moon to not be moving relative to the earth it is now in free fall.

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 Message 100 by Peg, posted 02-20-2009 1:30 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
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shalamabobbi
Member (Idle past 2849 days)
Posts: 397
Joined: 01-10-2009


Message 106 of 473 (499738)
02-20-2009 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Peg
02-20-2009 2:35 AM


Re: The Literal Interpretation is a Flat Earth
So you believe that the Jews from earliest times understood correct concepts of modern cosmology even though they lacked any knowledge beyond their neighboring peoples in math, chemistry, physics, biology, metallurgy. Do they also understand gravitational lensing then and time dilation as well? These are part of modern cosmology. Or do they just understand those parts of modern cosmology that you happen to understand as well?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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shalamabobbi
Member (Idle past 2849 days)
Posts: 397
Joined: 01-10-2009


Message 119 of 473 (499795)
02-20-2009 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Peg
02-20-2009 4:20 AM


Re: The Literal Interpretation is a Flat Earth
Another verse to consider on this topic then I have work to do:
Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
I believe this idea of a water layer under the earth ties in with a flat earth. Maybe GM can point out any correlation here with the book of Enoch. It has been some time since I've read it.

This message is a reply to:
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shalamabobbi
Member (Idle past 2849 days)
Posts: 397
Joined: 01-10-2009


Message 122 of 473 (499815)
02-20-2009 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Peg
02-20-2009 4:20 AM


Re: The Literal Interpretation is a Flat Earth
OK found it. The book of Enoch supports the same idea.
Chapter LIII
7. In those days shall punishment go forth from the Lord of spirits; and the receptacles of water which are above the heavens shall be opened, and the fountains likewise, which are under the heavens and under the earth.
8 All the waters, which are in the heavens and above them, shall be mixed together.
9. The water which is above heaven shall be the agent.
10. And the water which is under the earth shall be the recipient: and all shall be destroyed who dwell upon the earth, and who dwell under the extremities of heaven.
So there is this layered model of flat earth over waters.
Also you dismissed my quote from Isaiah with the sun retreating by using a different translation that interpretes it as the shadow going back and not due to the sun's movement. Very well Habakkuk is later than Isaiah by approximately a hundred years. He seems to agree that it is the sun that moves as well.
Hab 3:11 The sun and moon stood still in their habitation:

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