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Author Topic:   How did Monkeys get to South America?
Engineer
Member (Idle past 3596 days)
Posts: 65
From: KY, USA
Joined: 02-13-2009


Message 31 of 137 (499136)
02-16-2009 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by RAZD
02-16-2009 9:39 PM


Re: Please watch the topic
thanks for putting that together. It was a lot of work I'm sure. So currently what is the rate of continental drift in South America? I think I can find it, but thought I'd ask anyway.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by RAZD, posted 02-16-2009 9:39 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Coyote, posted 02-16-2009 10:10 PM Engineer has responded
 Message 37 by RAZD, posted 02-16-2009 10:25 PM Engineer has not yet responded

  
Engineer
Member (Idle past 3596 days)
Posts: 65
From: KY, USA
Joined: 02-13-2009


Message 32 of 137 (499138)
02-16-2009 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Theodoric
02-16-2009 9:53 PM


Re: Again I ask what is your alternative
quote:
You want to dispute this theory. People have given you the particulars of the theory and you continue to imply that you think it is stupid. Just because you don't agree with a scientific theory doesn't make it wrong.
You have no alternatives. So how can you continue to question it.

As for

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When Christopher Columbus sailed to America in a sea-worthy sailing vessel using a compass against the trade winds it took about a month. How well would a monkey-manned raft fare out on the big blue while crossing probably several hundred miles (or more) on sea currents which often follow coastlines, with no water to drink, while fighting off sea predators out there in the hot sun?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

this has been addressed in a previous post, but you seem to be too obtuse to understand, or are just providing more evidence that you are a troll with an agenda that refuses to consider anything other than your preconceived ideas.
As Sherlock Holmes said "Once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains - no matter how implausible - must be the truth."


Well I am sorry you are offended, but there are some hard-core evolutionists out there that think the raft theory borders on ridiculous. They propose, for example, multiple origin of monkeys from a common ancestor yet undiscovered.

I know you don't like the tenor of my statements, but I hear the same kind of stuff from Jesus-Mythers (that say a teacher named Jesus never existed), no matter what I show them, and they are a heck of a lot less polite than I am. But that is not the subject of this post.

I think it is humorous for evolutionists to defend a bunch of mindless monkeys on some freedom flotila bound for South America. The ocean is a harsh environment for seafarers. People don't survive very long on life rafts. Maybe monkeys can do better though.

Edited by Engineer, : fixed typo.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Theodoric, posted 02-16-2009 9:53 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Theodoric, posted 02-16-2009 10:19 PM Engineer has responded
 Message 43 by Nighttrain, posted 02-16-2009 10:48 PM Engineer has responded
 Message 59 by Blue Jay, posted 02-17-2009 12:50 AM Engineer has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 33 of 137 (499139)
02-16-2009 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Engineer
02-16-2009 9:57 PM


Age of the earth
Back in message #10 I asked you for your estimate of the age of the earth.

You have tried to duck the question.

This is an important question for the current topic, as it directly impacts the path monkeys took to South America.

If you believe the age of the earth is ca. 6,000 years and that Noah's flood actually occurred, then there is no point in discussing science with you as your a priori belief has rendered science moot. Miracles can do anything, on demand. Scientific evidence doesn't count for squat.

However, if you accept the evidence for an old earth then perhaps we can continue to discuss the topic of New vs. Old World Monkeys using scientific evidence.

So which is it? Do you accept the scientific evidence for an old earth, or do you insist on believing in a young earth in spite of that evidence?

Or are you going to continue to ignore my question?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Engineer, posted 02-16-2009 9:57 PM Engineer has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Engineer, posted 02-16-2009 10:23 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19759
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 6.4


Message 34 of 137 (499141)
02-16-2009 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Dr Adequate
02-16-2009 7:20 PM


non-island bio-geography?
Continents in the late Eocene, as reconstructed by geologists.

Not bad for amateurs ... :D

Seriously though, they should show the antarctic polar current. This would also result in climate change and probably some humdinger storms, such as we are expecting from global climate change now. Storms also provide fresh water and travel from Africa westward.

Not too bad, especially given the possibility of "island hopping" and the direction of the prevailing currents.

I don't think islands are necessary. I look at the islands in your diagram and wonder where they went.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-16-2009 7:20 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5954
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 35 of 137 (499142)
02-16-2009 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Engineer
02-16-2009 10:07 PM


Re: Again I ask what is your alternative
quote:
I think it is humorous for evolutionists to defend a bunch of mindless monkeys on some freedom flotila bound for South America. The ocean is a harsh environment for seafarers. People don't survive very long on life rafts. Maybe monkeys can do better though.

Just because you can not wrap your mind around it does not make it impossible. We are talking of a period of millions of years(at least we are, are you). TO state that it couldn't happen because you don't think so is extremely arrogant and not at all scientific.

As for Jesus mythers I would love for you to start a thread so I can hear your evidence for a historical jesus. Because there isn't any that is contemporary to the time he was suppsed to have lived. If you have some it would be earth shattering and would completely change biblical scholarship. So I think no.
What is this the third topc you have brought up in this thread. Stick to the OP and open up new threads if you want a reaction on other subjects.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Engineer, posted 02-16-2009 10:07 PM Engineer has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Engineer, posted 02-16-2009 10:32 PM Theodoric has responded

    
Engineer
Member (Idle past 3596 days)
Posts: 65
From: KY, USA
Joined: 02-13-2009


Message 36 of 137 (499143)
02-16-2009 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Coyote
02-16-2009 10:10 PM


Re: Age of the earth
quote:
Back in message #10 I asked you for your estimate of the age of the earth.

I don't know the age of the earth whether it's ten thousand or 10 billion. I suspect it's a lot older than 10 thousand years though, unless the creator wants to deliberately trick people into thinking it's older. I don't think He's a trickster.

quote:
You have tried to duck the question.

Sorry, my in box is full. I don't mean to put you off. I'll have to discuss dogs with you someday, and why they can still breed with the australian dingo -- another topic.

quote:
This is an important question for the current topic, as it directly impacts the path monkeys took to South America.

ok.

quote:
If you believe the age of the earth is ca. 6,000 years and that Noah's flood actually occurred, then there is no point in discussing science with you as your a priori belief has rendered science moot.

As I've said, I don't know. I used to struggle with a young earth but I don't anymore.

quote:
Miracles can do anything, on demand. Scientific evidence doesn't count for squat.

and miracles don't count for anything until you need one.

quote:
However, if you accept the evidence for an old earth then perhaps we can continue to discuss the topic of New vs. Old World Monkeys using scientific evidence.

I can agree to an older earth, and I don't have a dog in the fight (pun intended).

quote:
So which is it? Do you accept the scientific evidence for an old earth, or do you insist on believing in a young earth in spite of that evidence?

no problemo.

quote:
Or are you going to continue to ignore my question?

ok, but don't knock yourself out too hard. I'll listen but I'm kind of by myself here. Sorry to put you off. I appreciate the participation, but I need a secretary.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Coyote, posted 02-16-2009 10:10 PM Coyote has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Theodoric, posted 02-16-2009 10:35 PM Engineer has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19759
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 6.4


Message 37 of 137 (499144)
02-16-2009 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Engineer
02-16-2009 9:57 PM


Re: Please watch the topic
So currently what is the rate of continental drift in South America?

Irrelevant. Also off topic, yes?

thanks for putting that together. It was a lot of work I'm sure.

So do you concur that the rafting hypothesis is viable? Or are you trying to change the subject because you can't show that it is implausible?

Shall we discuss the survivability of different kinds of animals swept out to sea on large rafts of vegetation during storms?

Ever heard of fishing monkeys?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25078708/from/ET/wid/18298287/?GT1=45002

The ones that can survive the trip are the ones best able to take advantage of the opportunities around them.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Engineer, posted 02-16-2009 9:57 PM Engineer has not yet responded

  
Engineer
Member (Idle past 3596 days)
Posts: 65
From: KY, USA
Joined: 02-13-2009


Message 38 of 137 (499146)
02-16-2009 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Theodoric
02-16-2009 10:19 PM


Re: Again I ask what is your alternative
quote:
Just because you can not wrap your mind around it does not make it impossible. We are talking of a period of millions of years(at least we are, are you). TO state that it couldn't happen because you don't think so is extremely arrogant and not at all scientific.

I'm not the only one to have issues with it. Some of your own have issues with it too.

quote:
As for Jesus mythers I would love for you to start a thread so I can hear your evidence for a historical jesus. Because there isn't any that is contemporary to the time he was suppsed to have lived. If you have some it would be earth shattering and would completely change biblical scholarship. So I think no.
What is this the third topc you have brought up in this thread. Stick to the OP and open up new threads if you want a reaction on other subjects.

That's funny. You can't even believe a real jewish teacher existed 2000 years ago that maybe somebody exagerrated into superman. But 40 million years ago some monkeys got on a raft and sailed off to south america. Now you make me feel better, because you are extremely arrogant.

Edited by Engineer, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Theodoric, posted 02-16-2009 10:19 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Theodoric, posted 02-16-2009 10:44 PM Engineer has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5954
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 39 of 137 (499147)
02-16-2009 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Engineer
02-16-2009 10:23 PM


Re: Age of the earth
quote:
Sorry, my in box is full. I don't mean to put you off. I'll have to discuss dogs with you someday, and why they can still breed with the australian dingo -- another topic.

Funny how you could answer every other post. And another creationist fundie topic joins the thread. Can't win the argument so you figure if yu keep throwing crap on the wall something might stick?

quote:
I don't know the age of the earth whether it's ten thousand or 10 billion. I suspect it's a lot older than 10 thousand years though, unless the creator wants to deliberately trick people into thinking it's older. I don't think He's a trickster.

Means you are a yec. Because only yec would question the scientific dating of the earth.

Seems this whole thread is just an attempt to get your yec ideas out, because you refuse to accept plausibility of the scenarios presented kand continue to bring up other fundie and yec talking points.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Engineer, posted 02-16-2009 10:23 PM Engineer has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Engineer, posted 02-16-2009 10:44 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Engineer
Member (Idle past 3596 days)
Posts: 65
From: KY, USA
Joined: 02-13-2009


Message 40 of 137 (499148)
02-16-2009 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Theodoric
02-16-2009 10:35 PM


Re: Age of the earth
quote:
Means you are a yec. Because only yec would question the scientific dating of the earth.

I said I don't know the age of the earth. I wasn't there.

The scientific age of the earth has changed a lot in my short lifetime, or I'm a half billon years older now.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Theodoric, posted 02-16-2009 10:35 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-17-2009 12:22 AM Engineer has not yet responded
 Message 72 by JonF, posted 02-17-2009 4:11 PM Engineer has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5954
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 41 of 137 (499149)
02-16-2009 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Engineer
02-16-2009 10:32 PM


Re: Again I ask what is your alternative
Yup I sure do.

Because for the one there is scientific theory and observable evidence to show that it could happen.

The other there are stories that were written at least 40 years after his supposed death. Nothing mentioned at the time of his supposed life. Nothing at all in the contemporary historical record.

You see that is the difference between science and faith. Science has observable quantifiable evidence, faith has, well, faith has faith.

quote:
But 40 million years ago some monkeys got on a raft and sailed off to south america.

Does writing it in unrealistic terms make you think your disbelief has much more credence? Monkeys did not get on a raft. They did not sail. But you refuse to accept any evidence contrary to your preconceived ideas.

I suggest that this thread just be closed, because no matter what evidence you are presented with you will refuse to give it any thought or credibility.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Engineer, posted 02-16-2009 10:32 PM Engineer has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Engineer, posted 02-16-2009 10:51 PM Theodoric has responded

    
Darwinist
Junior Member (Idle past 3596 days)
Posts: 22
From: Two Rocks, Western Australia
Joined: 02-15-2009


Message 42 of 137 (499150)
02-16-2009 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by RAZD
02-16-2009 9:56 PM


Re: The Magic Koala theory
Island hopping would reduce the distance to travel. Hence, more animals can be considered.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by RAZD, posted 02-16-2009 9:56 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by RAZD, posted 02-17-2009 7:16 AM Darwinist has responded

    
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2074 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 43 of 137 (499151)
02-16-2009 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Engineer
02-16-2009 10:07 PM


Re: Again I ask what is your alternative
I think it is humorous for evolutionists to defend a bunch of mindless monkeys on some freedom flotila bound for South America. The ocean is a harsh environment for seafarers. People don't survive very long on life rafts. Maybe monkeys can do better though.

Try David Lewis` books-'We, the Navigators' or 'The Voyaging Stars' to see how Polynesians managed to sail thousands of miles, along with a cargo of critters, even into the unknown.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Engineer, posted 02-16-2009 10:07 PM Engineer has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Engineer, posted 02-16-2009 10:55 PM Nighttrain has not yet responded

    
Engineer
Member (Idle past 3596 days)
Posts: 65
From: KY, USA
Joined: 02-13-2009


Message 44 of 137 (499153)
02-16-2009 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Theodoric
02-16-2009 10:44 PM


Re: Again I ask what is your alternative
quote:
Yup I sure do.

Because for the one there is scientific theory and observable evidence to show that it could happen.


If you want a photograph of someone that lived 2000 years ago, then I should ask the same for monkeys going to south america.

quote:
The other there are stories that were written at least 40 years after his supposed death.

not to mention that we are writing about hypothetical monkeys 40 million years later.

quote:
Nothing mentioned at the time of his supposed life. Nothing at all in the contemporary historical record.

likewise for monkeys on a flotilla.

quote:
You see that is the difference between science and faith. Science has observable quantifiable evidence, faith has, well, faith has faith.

that's why faith is the same, but science keeps changing.

Edited by Engineer, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Theodoric, posted 02-16-2009 10:44 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Theodoric, posted 02-16-2009 11:03 PM Engineer has responded
 Message 49 by Coyote, posted 02-17-2009 12:00 AM Engineer has responded

  
Engineer
Member (Idle past 3596 days)
Posts: 65
From: KY, USA
Joined: 02-13-2009


Message 45 of 137 (499154)
02-16-2009 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Nighttrain
02-16-2009 10:48 PM


Re: Again I ask what is your alternative
I read kon tiki. The polynessions were very skilled seafarers with a little luck too.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Nighttrain, posted 02-16-2009 10:48 PM Nighttrain has not yet responded

  
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