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Author Topic:   Do only advantageous mutations fuel evolution?
Darwinist
Junior Member (Idle past 5516 days)
Posts: 22
From: Two Rocks, Western Australia
Joined: 02-15-2009


Message 1 of 28 (498904)
02-15-2009 6:33 AM


I would like to submit the above topic title for consideration, thanks.
Edited by Admin, : Change title.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 02-15-2009 7:23 AM Darwinist has replied
 Message 10 by shalamabobbi, posted 02-16-2009 4:08 PM Darwinist has not replied
 Message 11 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-16-2009 4:17 PM Darwinist has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 2 of 28 (498909)
02-15-2009 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Darwinist
02-15-2009 6:33 AM


We usually only promote topics that are framed in the form of a debate, with a pro and a con. Please flesh out your topic proposal to make clear your position on the issue by editing your Message 1, then post a note here to let me know you're done and I'll take another look.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Darwinist, posted 02-15-2009 6:33 AM Darwinist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Darwinist, posted 02-15-2009 7:52 AM Admin has replied

  
Darwinist
Junior Member (Idle past 5516 days)
Posts: 22
From: Two Rocks, Western Australia
Joined: 02-15-2009


Message 3 of 28 (498913)
02-15-2009 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Admin
02-15-2009 7:23 AM


Admin, my question doesn`t really have any pro`s or con`s. I would just like to know what, if any, questions remains unanswered in regards to proving that evolution occurs. Hope this helps. Cheers.

Always wanting to hear other peoples opinions about God and evolution. Email me.

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 Message 2 by Admin, posted 02-15-2009 7:23 AM Admin has replied

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Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 4 of 28 (498917)
02-15-2009 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Darwinist
02-15-2009 7:52 AM


Darwinist writes:
I would just like to know what, if any, questions remains unanswered in regards to proving that evolution occurs.
That's a different question than the one in your title. There are tons of unanswered questions concerning evolution, just as there are all across science. But the evidence long ago became sufficient for concluding that evolution occurs. Even before Darwin it had become obvious that evolution occurs. Lamarck proposed his "inheritance of acquired characteristics" theory to account for the observed evolution more than a half century before Darwin published Origin of Species.
Perhaps you'd like to rephrase your question to something like, "What do scientists consider the conclusive evidence that evolution occurs?" And then you'll still need to state your position on the issue. This isn't a "Get your questions about evolution answered here" site. It's a debate site.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Darwinist
Junior Member (Idle past 5516 days)
Posts: 22
From: Two Rocks, Western Australia
Joined: 02-15-2009


Message 5 of 28 (498953)
02-15-2009 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Admin
02-15-2009 9:03 AM


Admin, I would like to please change the title up for consideration to: Do both advantageous and neutral mutations fuel evolution? My position is that advantageous mutations alone could not fuel evolution.

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 Message 4 by Admin, posted 02-15-2009 9:03 AM Admin has replied

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Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 6 of 28 (498962)
02-15-2009 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Darwinist
02-15-2009 5:12 PM


I'm not sure that's a good topic for debate because your position would encounter widespread agreement. Is there some reason you believe your position might spark debate?

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Darwinist
Junior Member (Idle past 5516 days)
Posts: 22
From: Two Rocks, Western Australia
Joined: 02-15-2009


Message 7 of 28 (498976)
02-15-2009 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Admin
02-15-2009 6:22 PM


I was under the impression that a lot of evolutionists believe that only advantageous mutations fuel evolution?

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Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
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Message 8 of 28 (499050)
02-16-2009 7:44 AM


This misunderstanding is worth discussing. I'll change the title and promote the thread.
--Percy

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
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Message 9 of 28 (499052)
02-16-2009 7:45 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
shalamabobbi
Member (Idle past 2848 days)
Posts: 397
Joined: 01-10-2009


Message 10 of 28 (499082)
02-16-2009 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Darwinist
02-15-2009 6:33 AM


advantageous mutations
Advantageous mutations have been demonstrated to exist. The fact that most are disadvantageous is a moot point as they die off leaving the status quo. Only the beneficial changes that are few and far between result in the dramatic changes to the landscape. This explains stretches of apparent stasis followed by rapid change. My understanding of it anyhow..

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 11 of 28 (499085)
02-16-2009 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Darwinist
02-15-2009 6:33 AM


Neutral and near-neutral mutations can also be fixed by genetic drift. So no.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 12 of 28 (499162)
02-16-2009 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Darwinist
02-15-2009 7:40 PM


evolution need neutral AND beneficial
Welcome to the fray Darwinist,
I was under the impression that a lot of evolutionists believe that only advantageous mutations fuel evolution?
Mayr argues that neutral mutations are not evolution because they are not subject to selection.
This is true to a point, however, because what neutral mutations due is provide a variety of platforms for later mutations to form that are beneficial.
Can't find the source right now, but in one study on e.coli, over some 20 or 40 years, IIRC, starting from a single parent, with generations divided and some preserved for later analysis, they ended up with a beneficial mutation that was enabled by a prior neutral mutation: those without the neutral mutation did not evolve the beneficial one, those with did.
This is logical: neutral mutations provide variety within the gene pool, and it is variety that is important when confronting new and different ecological challenges, to provide an opportunity to take advantage of the new or different systems.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
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This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 13 of 28 (499176)
02-17-2009 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by RAZD
02-16-2009 11:44 PM


Re: evolution need neutral AND beneficial
Can't find the source right now, but in one study on e.coli, over some 20 or 40 years, IIRC, starting from a single parent, with generations divided and some preserved for later analysis, they ended up with a beneficial mutation that was enabled by a prior neutral mutation: those without the neutral mutation did not evolve the beneficial one, those with did.
You're thinking of this.
But I don't know if it's been determined yet that the original mutation (~ 20,000 generations) was neutral, just that it didn't allow metabolization of citrate.
Research continues ...

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 14 of 28 (499187)
02-17-2009 6:47 AM


I think there is a valuable distinction to be drawn between evolution in terms of the pattern of genetic change in a population and adaptive evolution in which the prevalence of certain phenotypic traits in a population change due to environmental/selective pressures.
I think this is the distinction Mayr draws that RAZD referred to.
It is also worth noting that as well as providing a foundational basis for further beneficial variation a mutation which is neutral, or even deleterious, in one environment may be beneficial in another.
TTFN,
WK

  
Darwinist
Junior Member (Idle past 5516 days)
Posts: 22
From: Two Rocks, Western Australia
Joined: 02-15-2009


Message 15 of 28 (499533)
02-19-2009 5:19 AM


But how then, if a mutation is beneficial in one environment, but deleterious in another, do we define exactly what an advantageous mutation is?

Always wanting to hear other peoples opinions about God and evolution. Email me.

Replies to this message:
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