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Author | Topic: How did Monkeys get to South America? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Nighttrain Member (Idle past 4023 days) Posts: 1512 From: brisbane,australia Joined: |
Another good read is 'A Fragile Paradise' by Andrew Mitchell, a naturalist, who shows how distinct species might have reached far-flung Pacific Islands.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
WOW. The utter ridiculousness of your reply leaves me unsure where to start.
quote: Boy I am not going to even touch that one it is so stupid.
quote: There are observable physical phenomena, that has shown that this could have happened. The positioning of the continents and probable currents also make it possible.
quote: Still you use terms that you know are ridiculous and don't even represent the situation at all. Building strawmen is not very polite, but I guess when it is all you have.
quote: That science keeps changing is a good thing. It means that all the time we learn more from observing, testing and falsifying. You obviously don't believe in the scientific method. Therefore, no matter what we say will not change your mo=ind at all. Your posts and arguments will just get more ridiculous and more sophomoric.
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Engineer Member (Idle past 5545 days) Posts: 65 From: KY, USA Joined: |
ok folks, I'm using this tectonic model to caluate the speed of Brasilia, Brazil relative to Brazzaville, Congo:
UNAVCO I get 12 mm/yr north. In 40 million years that would be a linear travel of: .12 cm/yr / [2.54 cm/in] / [12 in/ft] / [5250/ft/mile] * 40 x 10^6 years = 300 miles in 40 million years due north at linear speed. (*1) That doesn't do much for an east-west separation. I did not include any rotational components. Africa and South America are separated by at least 1700 miles. (*1) Math error is noted by Kuresu and corrected. 11:45 pm is past my bed time y'all. ;-) Edited by Engineer, : 12 mm is corrected to 1.2 cm
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2135 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
that's why faith is the same, but science keeps changing.
Science is becoming increasingly accurate. It discards old mistakes when new data show that its necessary. But when it does it becomes more accurate, and more reflective of the data--all the data. Creationism can't change because it is based on revelation of some kind, not data. In fact, it has to ignore any data that disagrees with that revelation. In doing so it is the exact opposite of science. That's why you have problems with monkeys getting to South America; you are looking for some way to ignore scientific evidence and stick to your religious belief. You are most likely trying fit the spread of New World monkeys from the Old World into the post-flood period, which occurred some 4,350 years ago according to biblical scholars. Unfortunately, there is no evidence for that either. Believe what you want, but don't try to pretend its science. It is not. Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
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Engineer Member (Idle past 5545 days) Posts: 65 From: KY, USA Joined: |
quote: ditto for you. You have two standards.
quote: I'm sure you see it that way, but I don't think you use a fair standard. I'm sure you disagree. If human testimony is so unreliable, then why is it used in a court of law?
quote: strawmonkeys, sir Theodore, straw monkeys.
quote: We call it moving the goal posts, and I don't think that's so good.
quote: I'd like to observe a good demonstration of abiogenisis sometime.
quote: Actually I do, Tell ya what -- I'll give you a dead man with all his RNA and DNA perfectly in place and all you have to do is bring him back to life. That should be easy enough for a scientist with a plan, and I'm even conceding all the other points about putting the right chemicals together in the right place to make it easier for you.
quote: That's how you see it. As I said already some of your own peers are not totally in agreement with you. Perhaps I should bring their studies to your attention. enuff mud-slinging ok??
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Salt water is no good to drink. I think you know this already. I do. But a raft of vegetation more than a mile in extent is not going to be without sources of water unpolluted by salt.
I assumed a sail boat is faster than rafting. How fast do you think an ocean current moves? What figures did you use for distance? A quick google around shows that the fastest surface ocean currents in the Atlantic would carry a raft ~ 110 miles/day. I don't have figures for the late Eocene. Given the Eocene distances and the possibility of island-hopping, I think that you're overestimating the time at sea.
The evolution approach only requires monkeys and rodents on board. And fewer of them, traveling shorter distances, with millions more years for this rare event to happen.
So who even needs an ark anymore? People arguing for the inerrancy of Genesis. Not that the Ark as described in Genesis would have been up to the job ...
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
ok folks, I'm using this tectonic model to caluate the speed of Brasilia, Brazil relative to Brazzaville, Congo: UNAVCO I get 12 mm/yr north. In 40 million years that would be a linear travel of: .12 cm/yr / [2.54 cm/in] / [12 in/ft] / [5250/ft/mile] * 40 x 10^6 years = 30 miles in 40 million years due north at linear speed. That doesn't do much for an east-west separation. I did not include any rotational components. Africa and South America are separated by at least 1700 miles. The point of your calculation is non-obvious.
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Engineer Member (Idle past 5545 days) Posts: 65 From: KY, USA Joined: |
quote: I wouldn't have a job without science. but 200 years from now, how much of the new stuff do you think will still be used? We laugh at people for thinking the world was flat and that ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny, but this changes.
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Engineer Member (Idle past 5545 days) Posts: 65 From: KY, USA Joined: |
quote: So what do you think a reasonable distance is for raft travel -- 1700 miles, 1500 miles, 500 miles? I would wonder if the modeling assumptions for south america were fudged to make the distance a whole lot closer 40 million years ago, as I hear in some of the explanations. The typical explanation says South America was closer 40 million years ago -- well how much closer?
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
I said I don't know the age of the earth. I wasn't there. The scientific age of the earth has changed a lot in my short lifetime, or I'm a half billon years older now. The approximation has become more precise, yes. This is what we find with science: it gets better and better the more research you do. "Taking the mean of this and the upper limit found above from the ratio of uranium to lead, we obtain 4 x 10^9 years as a rough approximation to the age of the Earth's crust." --- Russell, H.N., 1921. A superior limit to the age of the Earth's crust in Proceedings of the Royal Society of London, series A, vol. 99, pp. 84-86.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
As i said more and more sophomoric.
quote:Please explain what you mean by this. quote: You continue to conflate issues. Human testimony is used in a court of law when it is first hand and eyewitness. Hearsay is not allowed in court. The issues are not at all similar no matter what you say.
quote:do you even know what a strawman is? quote:yes fundie creationists do say that alot. But if science didn't change is views, we would still be living in huts dying of diseases we learned to control a long time ago. Where do you think you would be if science didn't move "the goal posts" quote: Another old fundie creationist canard. What it has to do with the OP or anything we are discussing I haven't a clue, but then again you are just using the posts to get in all the fundie arguments you can.
quote: Proving you have no idea what science or the scientific method is and I have no idea what the point you are trying to make is.
quote: Please do. And it is nice to know you finally admit you are creationist(since my peers are evolutionists) and the whole premise of your OP was to push creationist arguments and not what the OP said. Are you ever going to present an alternative hypothesis to how monkeys got to South America? Or are you just going to bring up refuted creationist arguments?
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
So what do you think a reasonable distance is for raft travel -- 1700 miles, 1500 miles, 500 miles? I'd need more data about things like Eocene currents, these rafts mentioned in your link, and monkeys.
I would wonder if the modeling assumptions for south america were fudged to make the distance a whole lot closer 40 million years ago. Let me set your mind at rest. No, they weren't. --- You still haven't explained the point of your calculation.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2135 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
quote: I wouldn't have a job without science. but 200 years from now, how much of the new stuff do you think will still be used? We laugh at people for thinking the world was flat and that ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny, but this changes. Fine, but don't mistake what you are doing for science. It is the exact opposite of science. Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
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Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2727 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: |
Hi, Engineer.
Engineer writes: I think it is humorous for evolutionists to defend a bunch of mindless monkeys on some freedom flotila bound for South America. I'm not sure I understand what your problem with the idea is. Science has dates, science has fossil records, and science has no evidence of a way between Africa and South America by conventional means.
The trouble is that we've tried all the "better" ways, and the "freedom flotilla" hypothesis is the only idea left that's consistent with the evidence. The Ark hypothesis suffers from chronology issues and the complete lack of evidence for a global Flood, so it seems (at least at the moment) a highly untenable alternative. Continental drift explanations also suffer from chronology issues, and land-bridge explanations suffer from their own non-existence in the region in question. Meanwhile, the rafting hypothesis suffers only from your doubts that there would be enough food and water to survive a trip of uncertain duration. Clearly, one of these hypotheses has the least against it, and we are obliged to tentatively accept that explanation until it is no longer the least contested (Occam's razor). Scientists would love to believe that there is a convenient land-bridge theory to explain the controversy away, but intellectual honesty forbids us from asserting that without evidence of a land bridge. Thus, we are forced to conclude that something unusual happened. I'm sorry that this disturbs you so much, but, unless you have a better explanation, you'll just have to accept that nature is under no obligation to minimize our psychological distress. -Bluejay/Mantis/Thylacosmilus Darwin loves you.
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Nighttrain Member (Idle past 4023 days) Posts: 1512 From: brisbane,australia Joined: |
ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny, but this changes.
Haeckel? Welcome back, Randman Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Irrelevant snide remark "hidden".
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