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Author | Topic: The Bible's Flat Earth | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Peg Member (Idle past 4949 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
Coragyps writes: Bullcrap, Buz. It has been pointed out at least twice on this thread that ancient Hebrew had a word for "ball." A ball is most often a sphere, except in American football and rugby. so there are exceptions to the general rule then
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Granny Magda Member Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 3.8 |
Buz my dear fellow, you are starting to sound desperate.
quote: I am not calling for anything. I am merely quoting your favourite book to you. It mentions foundations of the earth. In every instance the literal interpretation is that these foundations are actual, solid foundations, as here;
2 Samuel 22:16 Then the channels of the sea were seen, the foundations of the world were laid bare, at the rebuke of the Lord at the blast of the breath of his nostrils. Plainly, these are physical foundations, much the same as were seen by Enoch.
quote: Foundational in orbit? That sentence doesn't even make sense. How could the breath of God lay bare an orbital path? You are not making any sense. Besides, as I have already said at least twice, "fixed" and "immobile" are bloody silly and misleading ways to describe a body moving through space at great speed. If the authors had access to such knowledge, they were smart enough to express it clearly. Why do you insist upon portraying them as morons?
quote: No, the Middle East is called that because it lies East of the Europeans who decided to call it that. It is not so named in East Asia. It is only Eastern from a Western perspective. Compare this with;
Psalms 103:12 as far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our transgressions from us. This verse implies that East and West are not relative, but are in fact a set distance apart, and a great distance at that. Again, this is entirely consistent with the flat Earth of 1 Enoch, with its four cardinal directions on the disc-like earth. There is a lack of clarity in this area, so I am inclined to think that what is intended by "corners" is reference to the four cardinal directions. That still leaves the Hebrew cosmos with a flat Earth though. Mutate and Survive "The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 754 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
so there are exceptions to the general rule then What are you saying, Peg? That the ancient Hebrews knew the earth was shaped like a football but just wrote "circle" to mislead us? What the heck are you on about? Buz categorically said Hebrew had no word for "sphere." He's been shown to be wrong. "Ball" vey often is a synonym for "sphere." Get over it. "The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD
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Granny Magda Member Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 3.8 |
Don't take the piss. Are you actually interested in taking part in a debate? If so, you will need to do a lot better than mindlessly repeating the same refuted point and responding to reasoned arguments with a glib sentence or two.
There is no context into which you can place the word "immobile" that will make it mean "mobile", as you have attempted to do. If this is your idea of "context", I think the Bible is better off without it. Doubtless, you can find a context into which you might forcibly crow-bar each of the verses I cite. The problem for you is that when these verses are viewed together, the most parsimonious answer by far is that the authors in question viewed the earth as flat, or at least wrote of it as such. The simple explanation is that the Bible got something wrong. Why are you so afraid of that? Mutate and Survive "The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade
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Granny Magda Member Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 3.8 |
Hi Chi,
I completely take your point. The concept of a spherical Earth was well known to the Greeks at the time of the exile. That doesn't mean, however, that it was well known or widely believed outside of that culture. It would have been viewed by Hebrews of the day as being a heretical pagan idea. Whilst the OT may have been taking shape in the 6th century BCE, much of its content would have been far older and dominated by an older world-view. What is interesting is that the New Testament authors, educated men who understood Greek very well, must surely have been aware of the idea of a spherical Earth. They might not have believed it, but they must have known about it. It is certainly true that the majority of the verses I have been citing are Old Testament. On balance, I find it hard to believe that all of the NT authors were ignorant of the idea. Some may even have believed it. If so however, they did not mention it and some of them even made comments that fly in the face of a spherical Earth. Mutate and Survive "The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
Hi, Granny.
Whilst the OT may have been taking shape in the 6th century BCE, much of its content would have been far older and dominated by an older world-view. I believe that you are correct. I suspect that the writers of the Old Testament really did believe that the earth was flat. I was bringing up the possibility that they recognized the spherical earth to underscore my point: for whatever reasons, they chose to write language that indicates a flat earth. -
What is interesting is that the New Testament authors, educated men who understood Greek very well, must surely have been aware of the idea of a spherical Earth.... If so however, they did not mention it and some of them even made comments that fly in the face of a spherical Earth. The passages indicative of a flat earth in this case could just be poetry. That is what I believe, anyway. I could be wrong. One passage that comes to my mind is the temptation of Jesus, where he could see all the kingdoms of the earth from atop a high mountain. That could just be a not meant to be taken literally or, as I believe, it is consistent with the view of a spherical earth, but one where the Americas were not yet discovered. This is what I believe. I don't know what the writers of the various books of the Bible knew about the actual shape of the earth, although it is an interesting question. However, even if they did recognize that the earth is a sphere, it is clear that they were using flat earth imagery in their writings. Speaking personally, I find few things more awesome than contemplating this vast and majestic process of evolution, the ebb and flow of successive biotas through geological time. Creationists and others who cannot for ideological or religious reasons accept the fact of evolution miss out a great deal, and are left with a claustrophobic little universe in which nothing happens and nothing changes. -- M. Alan Kazlev
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9140 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3 |
The geopolitical term Middle East, first coined in 1902 by United States naval officer Alfred Thayer Mahan,
So I guess the ancients didn't call it the middle east.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Coragyps writes: Buz categorically said Hebrew had no word for "sphere." He's been shown to be wrong. "Ball" very often is a synonym for "sphere." Perhaps you should read more carefully before posting these false allegations, Coragyps. This is what I said. Embolden added for emphasis: Buzsaw said:
As has been cited, the Hebrew has a word for flat but not for sphere. Circle, meaning circle or sphere is the term used relative to the earth. The context is what determines whether it is a circle or a sphere. Of course, God, who inspired the wording, knew the earth was a sphere. I'm aware of only one Hebrew text using the word for ball and that does not apply to earth. The word circle was more appropriate to the context in which it was used in Isaiah. The intent of the wording was to depict the shape of the earth which was circular as in curvature. The word ball would not have fit the ticket for that particular text. For example, one would not say "the ball of the earth" to depict the curvature or shape of the earth. One would say that the earth was curved or circular. If the context had been "the earth was a ball," that might have been the word instead of "the earth was a circle." The context wording was "the circle of the earth," which would be the more suitable for depicting curvature. And guess what. The word curvature/curve is not in the Hebrew either. The word would be circle/circular. People are forgetting that the Hebrew vocabulary used a third or so as many words as our English, so context was relative to application. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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kuresu Member (Idle past 2533 days) Posts: 2544 From: boulder, colorado Joined: |
What part of
buz writes:
do you not understand? You wrote it yourself. You categorically claim Hebrew has no word for sphere. And then go on to potentially refute yourself (a sphere does look like a circle , but I find it laughable that the jews, or any people really, would not have a word for sphere and thus use circle instead, given how different the shapes are in reality).
As has been cited, the Hebrew has a word for flat but not for sphere.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
The Online Dictionary definition of corner substantiates that the Biblical term corner need not refer to geometric angular corners.
Note the emboldened definitions (embolding mine for emphasis) which support our claims. This is just another example of how Biblifobic skeptics of the Biblical record exact upon the Biblical record what they do not exact on other literature or upon themselves in debating the issues.
corner (krnr) n. 1. a. The position at which two lines, surfaces, or edges meet and form an angle: the four corners of a rectangle. b. The area enclosed or bounded by an angle formed in this manner: sat by myself in the corner; the corner of one's eye. 2. The place where two roads or streets join or intersect. 3. a. Sports Any of the four angles of a boxing or wrestling ring where the ropes are joined. b. Baseball Either side of home plate, toward or away from the batter. 4. A threatening or embarrassing position from which escape is difficult: got myself into a corner by boasting. 5. A remote, secluded, or secret place: the four corners of the earth; a beautiful little corner of Paris. 6. A part or piece made to fit on a corner, as in mounting or for protection. 7. a. A speculative monopoly of a stock or commodity created by purchasing all or most of the available supply in order to raise its price. b. Exclusive possession; monopoly: "Neither party . . . has a corner on all the good ideas" George B. Merry. v. cornered, cornering, corners v.tr. 1. To furnish with corners. 2. To place or drive into a corner: cornered the thieves and captured them. 3. To form a corner in (a stock or commodity): cornered the silver market. v.intr. 1. To come together or be situated on or at a corner. 2. To turn, as at a corner: a truck that corners poorly. adj. 1. Located at a street corner: a corner drugstore. 2. Designed for use in a corner: a corner table. Idiom: around the corner About to happen; imminent. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Middle English, from Anglo-Norman, from Old French corne, corner, horn, from Vulgar Latin *corna, from Latin cornua, pl. of corn, horn, point; see ker-1 in Indo-European roots.] The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2003. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------corner Noun 1. the place or angle formed by the meeting of two converging lines or surfaces 2. the space within the angle formed, as in a room 3. the place where two streets meet 4. a sharp bend in a road 5. a remote place: far-flung corners of the world 6. any secluded or private place 7. Sports a free kick or shot taken from the corner of the field 8. cut corners to take the shortest or easiest way at the expense of high standards 9. turn the corner to pass the critical point of an illness or a difficult time Adjective on or in a corner: a corner seat Verb 1. to force (a person or animal) into a difficult or inescapable position 2. (of a vehicle or its driver) to turn a corner 3. to obtain a monopoly of [Latin cornu point], BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9140 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3 |
Do you bother to read other posts that criticize you and show the flaws in your logic?
OK let me step you through this slowly. Try to keep up. Bibles are translated to English from the original language, be it Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek. The original word is kanaph Some bibles have translated it as corner.Just because corner means these different things in English, does not mean Kanaph means these two things. Words are not always directly translatable between languages. Here is a real simple example. THe spanish word arco. This translates to Bow in English, as in bow and arrow. NOw it would be ludicrous to to translate this asbow - A knot usually having two loops and two ends So if you can show that Kanaph means the multiple things corner does then you may be on to something. Oh wait!! It seems other translations dont use the word corner. That doesn't seem to help does it. Please read other posts.
shalamabobbi writes:
Message 42
Kanaph - means extremity.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
The Online Dictionary definition of corner substantiates that the Biblical term corner need not refer to geometric angular corners. Note the emboldened definitions (embolding mine for emphasis) which support our claims. Buz - just a quick question. Why do people say 'the four corners of the earth'? Where did this usage of the word 'corner' come from? I suggest it might be because of the Bible. Just a thought.
This is just another example of how Biblifobic skeptics of the Biblical record exact upon the Biblical record what they do not exact on other literature or upon themselves in debating the issues. Is it Bibliphobic to point out that certain phrases that are in the Bible can make it into our common idiomatic speech patterns? After all 'the four corners of the earth' would just be a drop in the bucket. Then again, perhaps the Bibliphobes (people afraid of books?) are sucking down on sour grapes. Meh - how the mighty have fallen. Fare well - eat, drink and be merry!
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Granny Magda Member Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 3.8 |
Buz you are being increasingly ridiculous.
5. A remote, secluded, or secret place: the four corners of the earth; a beautiful little corner of Paris. This definition simply does not fit. How many secluded little corners do you think one might find in Paris? The phrase use in the Bible is invariably "the four corners of the earth". This is clearly referring to four specific places. There would obviously be an almost limitless number of secluded spots on the earth if the phrase was being used in this context, not just four. It is clear that the four cardinal directions are being referenced here, the four extremities of a flat earth. The economic definition of "corner" is irrelevant, since it is obviously not what is meant by the text and the idiom "around the corner" is making metaphorical use of an actual corner, that one might walk around. Mutate and Survive AbE: By the way Buz, "bibliophobic" means "afraid of books", all books that is, not just your favourite. Edited by Granny Magda, : No reason given. "The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Modulous writes: Buz - just a quick question. Why do people say 'the four corners of the earth'? Where did this usage of the word 'corner' come from? I suggest it might be because of the Bible. Just a thought. Where it originated is no more relative than any other idiomatic expression. What is relative is that it is an acceptable idiom. It has not been established that it is more acceptable idiomatically today than it was in Isaiah's day. Why should it's idiomatic application make any more sense today to us than it did to them. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Yes - I appreciate your argument is that it is idiomatic. The question remains: was it an idiom? Well - there is evidence that it wasn't, that many people in that region of the world in that period of time did in fact think of the world as a flat square, or sometimes a flat disk with a solid dome over the top.
Is there any reason to believe that the 'four corners of the world' was an idiomatic expression rather than an expression of the cosmological understanding of the authors (above and beyond the problems that it not being idiomatic causes certain religious believers)?
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