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Author Topic:   The Bible's Flat Earth
shalamabobbi
Member (Idle past 2848 days)
Posts: 397
Joined: 01-10-2009


Message 166 of 473 (500099)
02-23-2009 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Buzsaw
02-22-2009 5:37 PM


where's my response?
Hey Buz,
Anybody from your side of the debate going to field an answer to my post # 148?
If they knew stars were distant suns etc but lacked a knowledge of the speed limit in the universe, c, then the description in Matt 2:9,10 is either impossible and the bible is incorrect here and hence fallible, or the light was not from a star and the bible describing it as from a star is incorrect and hence fallible. So which is it, fallible or fallible?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Buzsaw, posted 02-22-2009 5:37 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 167 of 473 (500100)
02-23-2009 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by shalamabobbi
02-21-2009 9:44 PM


Re: Star
Hi shalamabobbi,
shalamabobbi writes:
Maybe to preserve biblical inerrancy we might consider this star to be Elvis?
Why don't we just say it was one of the angels as the word ἀή translated star in Matthew 2:9 is used 24 times in the NT and it is referring to angels.
Here is one instance for you.
Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
shalamabobbi writes:
Good point. How close would this 'star' have to be?
The angel could be as close as he wanted to be.
But I don't see what that has got to do with the topic.
So since this is off topic I will ask Percy for mercy and refrain from addressing it again.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by shalamabobbi, posted 02-21-2009 9:44 PM shalamabobbi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by shalamabobbi, posted 02-23-2009 4:36 AM ICANT has not replied

  
shalamabobbi
Member (Idle past 2848 days)
Posts: 397
Joined: 01-10-2009


Message 168 of 473 (500115)
02-23-2009 4:36 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by ICANT
02-23-2009 1:29 AM


Re: Star
I don't think this is OT as it has to do with their view of the cosmos which ties into the picture they seemed to have of a flat earth. So a metaphorical use of the word star in one location allows that use in another occasion but does not demand that interpretation? Or are we to conclude that the stars mentioned in the creation account of genesis are not really actual stars but rather angels as well?
I will ask another question. Is the use of star by Paul when saying there is one glory of the sun, another of the moon, and another glory of the stars in accord with the use of this word as well? I will trust you here to give the honest answer. Thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by ICANT, posted 02-23-2009 1:29 AM ICANT has not replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 169 of 473 (500124)
02-23-2009 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Buzsaw
02-22-2009 5:37 PM


quote:
The four winds are in today; the Easterlies, the Westerlies, The Northerlies and the Southerlies.
Nope. When modern meteorologists discuss a "northerly" they are talking about a specific weather system. A specific wind, a temporary event, yes? The direction given is relative to where the forecaster is talking about. This is clearly not the case in the Bible, as shown here;
Revelation 7:1
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on the earth or sea or against any tree.
These winds sound as though there are four basic winds, one for each of the cardinal directions. That is a long way from the modern usage.
Also, I'm no expert on meteorology, but last time I checked, the weather forecast didn't mention any "storehouses" for the wind.
Jeremiah 10:13 (NASB)
When He utters His voice, there is a tumult of waters in the heavens, And He causes the clouds to ascend from the end of the earth; He makes lightning for the rain, And brings out the wind from His storehouses.
Funnily enough, these storehouses sound just the same as the ones visited by Enoch.
60.11 And the other Angel spoke to me, the one who went with me and showed me what is secret; what is first and last in Heaven, in the heights, and under the dry ground, in the depths, and at the Ends of Heaven, and at the Foundations of Heaven, and in the Storehouses of the Winds.
These are clearly literal storehouses, one at each "corner of the earth" and I see no reason to assume that the canonical texts mean anything different when they use the exact same language.
What's the problem Buz? I thought you were a literalist?
Mutate and Survive

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Buzsaw, posted 02-22-2009 5:37 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by ICANT, posted 02-23-2009 11:11 AM Granny Magda has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 170 of 473 (500134)
02-23-2009 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by Granny Magda
02-23-2009 8:39 AM


Re Storehouses
Hi GM,
You never cease to amaze me, especially when you want to pound Buz on the head.
The first thing you need to do is get you a good Bible.
The second thing would be to get the Holy Spirit to lead you in what it says.
Nevertheless I will address your storehouses.
A storehouse is a place where you store things until you need them.
God has a storehouse that rises at least 1000 kilometers, above the earth as there is a trace of the Earth's 'hydrogen cloud' as its outer atmosphere.
The clouds do not rise from the ends of the earth as you proclaim.
The vapor rises from all extremities of the earth and forms the clouds.
Wouldn't those extremities include all the surface of the earth.
Now to your prophetic reference.
Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
What is the problem with the four angels standing on the four cardinal corners of the earth.
The next verse says:
7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
So now you have another angel coming from the East corner of the earth.
The Greek word translated four winds in Rev. 7:1,
ἄ transliteration anemos, definition the four principal or cardinal winds.
Since the writer is addressing the four cardinal points, what is the problem?
Keep in mind that we are talking about points N, S, E, and W from where you are that could extend to the end of the universe not curve around the earth.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Granny Magda, posted 02-23-2009 8:39 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by NosyNed, posted 02-23-2009 11:20 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 173 by Granny Magda, posted 02-23-2009 12:09 PM ICANT has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 171 of 473 (500135)
02-23-2009 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by ICANT
02-23-2009 11:11 AM


Re: Re Storehouses
So there are bad Bibles? How do I tell the difference?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by ICANT, posted 02-23-2009 11:11 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by ICANT, posted 02-23-2009 11:47 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 172 of 473 (500138)
02-23-2009 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by NosyNed
02-23-2009 11:20 AM


Re Storehouses
Hi Ned,
NoseyNed writes:
So there are bad Bibles? How do I tell the difference?
You could start by studying Hebrew and Chaldee for the OT and Koine Greek for the NT for 6 or 8 years. Then continue to practice it for 30, 40 or more years. That would give you a place to begin.
Other than that you would need to take somebody's word for what was good and what was bad.
Personally I never like to take anybody's word for anything today.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by NosyNed, posted 02-23-2009 11:20 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 173 of 473 (500140)
02-23-2009 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by ICANT
02-23-2009 11:11 AM


Re: Storehouses
Hi ICANT,
quote:
You never cease to amaze me, especially when you want to pound Buz on the head.
I'm glad I amaze you, but I have no desire to pound Buz on the head. We disagree is all. If I put forward my points forcefully, that's just because that's the kind of person I am. Buz is a big boy and he can take it.
quote:
The first thing you need to do is get you a good Bible.
Sorry, but I don't think that there is such a thing.
quote:
The second thing would be to get the Holy Spirit to lead you in what it says.
Again, sorry, but...
quote:
God has a storehouse that rises at least 1000 kilometers, above the earth as there is a trace of the Earth's 'hydrogen cloud' as its outer atmosphere.
Funny, but the text says "storehouses", plural. It usually refers to them as being at "the ends of the earth". You can interpret this as referring to an atmosphere that the authors had no idea existed if you like, but I beg to differ. The storehouse/treasure references are quite clear and the simplest explanation is that they are literal. They are the same storehouses that Enoch visits in his cosmic sightseeing tour.
quote:
The clouds do not rise from the ends of the earth as you proclaim.
I did not proclaim any such thing. Your favourite sci-fi book proclaimed that the winds came from the ends of the earth. I am simply taking it at its word.
quote:
The vapor rises from all extremities of the earth and forms the clouds.
Wouldn't those extremities include all the surface of the earth.
An extremity that includes all the surface of the Earth is no extremity at all.
quote:
What is the problem with the four angels standing on the four cardinal corners of the earth.
a) A moment ago you were interpreting the "ends of the earth" as being the whole surface of the Earth. Now you are changing your tune.
b) Where is the Eastern corner of the Earth exactly? Where is the West?
quote:
Since the writer is addressing the four cardinal points, what is the problem?
The angel is standing at the Western end of the Earth. Where is he standing exactly?
quote:
Keep in mind that we are talking about points N, S, E, and W from where you are that could extend to the end of the universe not curve around the earth.
That may be your interpretation, but good luck finding anyone else who'll sign up to it. You have wandered off into the realms of science fiction. The Bible authors had no concept that even came close to the modern picture of the cosmos and trying to force such a concept into their words strikes me as fundamentally pointless.
Mutate and Survive

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by ICANT, posted 02-23-2009 11:11 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by ICANT, posted 02-23-2009 12:49 PM Granny Magda has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 174 of 473 (500141)
02-23-2009 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Granny Magda
02-23-2009 12:09 PM


Re: Storehouses
Hi GM,
Granny Magda writes:
That may be your interpretation, but good luck finding anyone else who'll sign up to it. You have wandered off into the realms of science fiction. The Bible authors had no concept that even came close to the modern picture of the cosmos and trying to force such a concept into their words strikes me as fundamentally pointless.
You have been arguing this entire thread that the earth is flat.
You have argued that the writers only saw it as flat.
Then you make the statement the authors had no concept that you could go as far East, West, North, or South as you wanted towards the stars, and that there was an angel at each end.
Granny Magda writes:
Funny, but the text says "storehouses",
Actually the text says treasures.
Can you imagine how hot it would be without the wind?
Granny Magda writes:
I did not proclaim any such thing. Your favourite sci-fi book proclaimed that the winds came from the ends of the earth. I am simply taking it at its word.
When you interpret the word to say what you want it to say you are proclaiming.
Granny Magds writes:
An extremity that includes all the surface of the Earth is no extremity at all.
Wouldn't that be determined from your point of perception.
From inside a cave or from heaven any point on the surface of the earth would be an extremity.
Granny Magda writes:
a) A moment ago you were interpreting the "ends of the earth" as being the whole surface of the Earth. Now you are changing your tune.
The extremities of the earth and the four cardinal corners of the earth are two different things.
The source of the vapor that forms the clouds is the surface of the earth.
Granny Magda writes:
b) Where is the Eastern corner of the Earth exactly? Where is the West?
The Eastern corner is where the angel will be standing when the prophecy is fulfilled.
The West is 180 degrees in the opposite direction of the East.
Granny Magda writes:
The angel is standing at the Western end of the Earth. Where is he standing exactly?
Well since the prophecy has not come to pass yet he is probably standing before the throne of God giving Him praise.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Granny Magda, posted 02-23-2009 12:09 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Granny Magda, posted 02-23-2009 1:59 PM ICANT has replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 175 of 473 (500147)
02-23-2009 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by ICANT
02-23-2009 12:49 PM


Re: Storehouses
ICANT, you are being deliberately obtuse, yet again. please stop it.
quote:
You have been arguing this entire thread that the earth is flat.
You have argued that the writers only saw it as flat.
Then you make the statement the authors had no concept that you could go as far East, West, North, or South as you wanted towards the stars, and that there was an angel at each end.
No, you have misunderstood. I am saying that there were four locations, at the edge of the disc/earth and at each of those locations (the ends of the earth) there was a storehouse/treasure, where the winds were kept/originated from. At least, that is the picture painted by the texts. Clear?
I am not talking about points way off into space, that's your silly idea.
quote:
Actually the text says treasures.
I know what it says and the various translations have either version. Each means essentially the same thing. Storehouse=treasure=treasury.
quote:
When you interpret the word to say what you want it to say you are proclaiming.
I am proclaiming nothing. I am merely making a literal reading of these texts.
quote:
Wouldn't that be determined from your point of perception.
From inside a cave or from heaven any point on the surface of the earth would be an extremity.
Rubbish. You have just defined the term out of any possibility of meaning. Extremity=anywhere/everywhere. I don't think so. These references are clearly referring to specific places, not generalised references to anywhere-at-all.
quote:
The extremities of the earth and the four cardinal corners of the earth are two different things.
No they're not ICANT. They are exactly the same things, hence the identical modern idiomatic use of "the four winds" and "the ends of the earth".
quote:
The Eastern corner is where the angel will be standing when the prophecy is fulfilled.
The West is 180 degrees in the opposite direction of the East.
Don't dodge the question. Where, exactly, is the angel standing? I'm looking for a precise location. I know where the Northern extremity of the Earth is, I know where the Southern extremity is. Where is the Eastern extremity.
quote:
Well since the prophecy has not come to pass yet he is probably standing before the throne of God giving Him praise.
Don't be silly, you know that's not what I'm asking. The angel is at the extreme Eastern end of the Earth. Where, precisely, is he standing?
Mutate and Survive

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by ICANT, posted 02-23-2009 12:49 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by ICANT, posted 02-23-2009 3:38 PM Granny Magda has replied
 Message 181 by Peg, posted 02-23-2009 5:43 PM Granny Magda has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 176 of 473 (500148)
02-23-2009 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Buzsaw
02-21-2009 6:17 PM


Re: Flat Not FeasibleHi
Except, of course, you are wrong.
The Hebrew does not mean spherical. IT means 'circle' and flat. The word Chuwg, is a two dimensional object.
If a sphere or ball was meant, the word that would have been used would have been duwr , as in Isaiah 22:18.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Buzsaw, posted 02-21-2009 6:17 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 177 of 473 (500151)
02-23-2009 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Granny Magda
02-23-2009 1:59 PM


Re: Storehouses
Hi GM,
Granny Magda writes:
Don't be silly, you know that's not what I'm asking. The angel is at the extreme Eastern end of the Earth. Where, precisely, is he standing?
They are not presently standing at the four corners of the earth.
They will be standing there in the future.
If I had to guess where they are today I would say they are before the throne of God giving Him praise.
The rest you have already decided.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Granny Magda, posted 02-23-2009 1:59 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Granny Magda, posted 02-23-2009 4:28 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Black
Member (Idle past 5183 days)
Posts: 77
Joined: 11-28-2008


Message 178 of 473 (500154)
02-23-2009 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Granny Magda
02-22-2009 10:02 AM


BUMP
Edited by Black, : edit
Edited by Black, : edit
Edited by Black, : edit
Edited by Black, : edit

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Granny Magda, posted 02-22-2009 10:02 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Granny Magda, posted 02-23-2009 5:34 PM Black has replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 179 of 473 (500157)
02-23-2009 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by ICANT
02-23-2009 3:38 PM


Re: Storehouses
quote:
They are not presently standing at the four corners of the earth.
They will be standing there in the future.
Or to put it another way, you know perfectly well what I am asking, but, lacking a convincing sensible answer, you are going to try and brush the question off with a smart Alec answer.
Not even a nice try.
Mutate and Survive

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by ICANT, posted 02-23-2009 3:38 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 180 of 473 (500161)
02-23-2009 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Black
02-23-2009 4:05 PM


Thanks for your cordial reply Black.
quote:
What evidence do you have suggesting that the Hebrews perceived our earth as flat?
Well for starters, it was the prevailing view of the time. Most of the civilisations that surrounded them believed in a flat Earth. It would have been pretty exceptional for the Bible authors to have known otherwise. This becomes even more exceptional when you consider that they did not choose to explicitly refer to this novel idea.
Then there are verses like this one.
Psalms 136:6
to him who spread out the earth upon the waters, for his steadfast love endures forever;
Spread out? How does one spread out a sphere? This makes much more sense when viewed as describing God spreading out a flat continent upon a flat body of primal water.
Isaiah 44:24
Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb; "I am the Lord, who made all things, who stretched out the heavens alone, who spread out the earth
The heavens are stretched out? Try as I might, I can't quite picture this with a spherical Earth and its thin layer of atmosphere. On a flat Earth however, it makes sense.
In some verses, it is possible to see or be seen from, all parts of the earth at once.
Daniel 4:10-11
The visions of my head as I lay in bed were these: I saw, and behold, a tree in the midst of the earth; and its height was great. The tree grew and became strong, and its top reached to heaven, and it was visible to the end of the whole earth.
The whole Earth? Note that this amazing visibility seems to be purely a function of the tree's prodigious size. Even within the context of a vision, this is impossible to picture on a spherical Earth. On a flat land mass however, it is perfectly intuitive.
Job 28:24
For he looks to the ends of the earth, and sees everything under the heavens.
God can see the whole world at once. But he's omniscient right? So no problem? Well, perhaps. Except that I don't recall the Bible explicitly saying that God is omniscient. It seems just as likely to me that God can see everything simply as a function of his perspective from atop the firmament, as per Isaiah 40:22.
It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in;
Note the description "like a tent" here. That implies a dome-shaped sky. This is necessarily support for a flat earth, since a dome makes no sense at all when applied to a sphere.
Also note that this verse calls the earth a circle. That is a two dimensional, or at least flat object. I have seen the claims that this can mean circle, but I am afraid that I am not convinced, mostly due to the lack of corroborating examples.
quote:
Can you please quote the scripture you derived this information from?
The dome or the winds?
The firmament is mentioned in many passages, such as this one;
Job 37:18
can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?
Job 22:14 and Proverbs 8:27-29 also mention a solid-sounding sky.
For the four winds, how about this;
Jeremiah 49:36
I will bring upon Elam the four winds From the four ends of heaven, And will scatter them to all these winds; And there will be no nation To which the outcasts of Elam will not go.
Revelation 7:1 is also pretty explicit.
There are other verses for both of these concepts.
quote:
The Hebrews were obviously unaware of the Mayans and as such it does make perfect sense that in Mathew 4:8 Jesus was shown all the kingdoms of the world(the world known).
That is possible. It should be noted however, that it is not a literal translation. It does not say "known world", but "all the kingdoms of the world". At best, this passage is using flat Earth imagery. It also comes directly after mention of Satan tempting Jesus in the desert, an event that has traditionally been interpreted as being absolutely true. Sounds like pick-and-choose literalism to me!
Black writes:
Granny writes:
You are making the mistake of trying to shoehorn the text into a modern world-view, a view that is entirely anachronistic.
According to you!
Well, yeah... I feel it is a point worth making though. Take Peg for instance. To my mind, her suggestion that a "fixed" Earth refers to its being "fixed in its orbit" is totally wrong headed (not to single out Peg or anything, it's just the example that came to mind). The Bible authors had no idea that the Earth was in orbit, quite the reverse in fact. They simply did not have access to certain pieces of knowledge, much of cosmology included.
It is a mistake to force ancient peoples to speak with modern tongues.
quote:
The "ends of the earth" could easily be interpreted as the "ends of the earth known to the hebrews" beings that the text is relevant to them.
and
Again, the earth known to the Hebrews!
Very Hebrew-centric isn't it? I thought Christianity was supposed to be universal. Is God not interested in shaking the wicked out of China?
Consider the known world of that era. It was pretty small by today's standard. Would that small area of the Middle of Eurasia not have seemed flat? Considered on its own, the then-known world can hardly be compared to a sphere, it simply doesn't cover the ground. This view of the world is equivalent to believing in a flat earth anyway. This is why the idea persisted; the earth they knew made sense when viewed as an essentially flat circular expanse, topped off with a solid dome. There is nothing to suggest that they thought otherwise.
The authors do not differentiate between the known world and the entire world. They make no distinction because to them, the known world was the entire world.
Mutate and Survive

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Black, posted 02-23-2009 4:05 PM Black has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Black, posted 02-23-2009 6:08 PM Granny Magda has replied

  
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