Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Bible's Flat Earth
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 181 of 473 (500162)
02-23-2009 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Granny Magda
02-23-2009 1:59 PM


Re: Storehouses
GM writes:
Don't be silly, you know that's not what I'm asking. The angel is at the extreme Eastern end of the Earth. Where, precisely, is he standing?
he's not standing in a literal position this is a symbolic expression
'the four corners of the earth,' and 'the four winds of the earth' (Re 7:1) cannot be taken to prove that the Hebrews understood the earth to be square.
The number four is often used to denote that which is fully rounded out, as it were, just as we have four directions and sometimes employ the expressions 'to the ends of the earth,' 'to the four corners of the earth,' in the sense of embracing all the earth.
All the things spoken of in REvelation such as the 4 riders of the Apocalypse (War, Pestilence, Death, Famine) for example, will happen earth wide.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Granny Magda, posted 02-23-2009 1:59 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Granny Magda, posted 02-23-2009 6:06 PM Peg has replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 182 of 473 (500163)
02-23-2009 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Peg
02-23-2009 5:43 PM


Re: Storehouses
quote:
he's not standing in a literal position this is a symbolic expression
It is entirely consistent with the flat earth that I am presenting though. It is entirely consistent with Enoch's Earth. If we are not to take this as literal, why should we take any of the rabid imaginings of Revelation as literal?
quote:
'the four corners of the earth,' and 'the four winds of the earth' (Re 7:1) cannot be taken to prove that the Hebrews understood the earth to be square.
I can't shake off the feeling that you're not paying attention. I'm not saying that they thought it was square. Perhaps a picture will help. Here's one from Robert J. Schadewald's flat earth page.
This one is similar.
Second image from James L. Christian, Philosophy: An Introduction to the Art of Wondering, 6th ed.,(Harcourt, 1994), p. 512. It is not to be used without giving him proper credit. Apparently.
I am saying that the earth was thought of as a circle, just as Isaiah describes it.
quote:
The number four is often used to denote that which is fully rounded out, as it were, just as we have four directions and sometimes employ the expressions 'to the ends of the earth,' 'to the four corners of the earth,' in the sense of embracing all the earth.
Which came first, the belief or the idiom? The idiomatic use of these phrases simply dates back to the ancient belief in a flat Earth. Their use in modern Western cultures is there because of the Bible, not the other way around.
quote:
All the things spoken of in REvelation such as the 4 riders of the Apocalypse (War, Pestilence, Death, Famine) for example, will happen earth wide.
Well that's something to look forward to. Are they literal? How do you tell these things?
Mutate and Survive

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Peg, posted 02-23-2009 5:43 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Peg, posted 02-23-2009 6:37 PM Granny Magda has replied

  
Black
Member (Idle past 5183 days)
Posts: 77
Joined: 11-28-2008


Message 183 of 473 (500164)
02-23-2009 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Granny Magda
02-23-2009 5:34 PM


Granny Magda,
My entire argument is simple. The Hebrews wrote in a context of what they understood(obviously). For Example: If the Hebrews were unaware of the Mayans, how can the Mayans be included in a context in any scripture written by the Hebrews? Please don't argue divinity as we are not discussing that right now. We are obviously discussing the writings as if there is no GOD.
Edited by Black, : edit
Edited by Black, : edit
Edited by Black, : edit

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Granny Magda, posted 02-23-2009 5:34 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Granny Magda, posted 02-23-2009 7:46 PM Black has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 184 of 473 (500169)
02-23-2009 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Granny Magda
02-23-2009 6:06 PM


Re: Storehouses
GM writes:
Well that's something to look forward to. Are they literal? How do you tell these things?
The 4 horsemen are not literal...but the bible writer used the symbolic imagery of 4 horsemen to describe literal events.
He probably did not know what they represented, but if we look at the earth today, we can see that there is a literal fullfilment to the symbolisms of the 4 horsemen.
literally we do see war, famine, disease and death
but the descriptions of the 4 horsemen who ride forth in the earth, are symbolic of these things.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Granny Magda, posted 02-23-2009 6:06 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Granny Magda, posted 02-23-2009 7:55 PM Peg has replied
 Message 190 by Coragyps, posted 02-23-2009 9:18 PM Peg has not replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 185 of 473 (500178)
02-23-2009 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Black
02-23-2009 6:08 PM


quote:
My entire argument is simple. The Hebrews wrote in a context of what they understood(obviously). If the Hebrews were unaware of the Mayans, how can the Mayans be included in a context in any scripture written by the Hebrews?
This is a fair point, but if it is your entire argument, then it fails to address the other passages I have cited.
The text simply does not say "the known world". The authors would have been perfectly able to say this if it were their intent. When Genesis 1 says that God created the heaven and the earth, it doesn't mean the known earth. It means all the earth. When the flood is described, it doesn't describe the known world, it describes a flood that kills all living things. Likewise, when the Devil shows Jesus the world, it is intended literally. When the Bible says "all the world", it generally means it.
Besides, at sea level, the horizon is only about three miles away. The curvature of the Earth would prevent the elevation gained from even the highest mountain from giving you a view of the known world of the time. Only on a flat Earth would this be even remotely feasible.
Please understand, I would not be putting forward this argument if there were not a large number of other passages that support a Babylonian-style cosmology. Matthew 4:8 alone would not be very convincing. It's not alone though. Between them, the passages I have cited, and a few more besides, add up to a big picture of a universe very much like the one in the pictures I posted above.
If I'm wrong, show me the scriptures that contradict this model.
Mutate and Survive

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Black, posted 02-23-2009 6:08 PM Black has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Black, posted 02-23-2009 8:05 PM Granny Magda has replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 186 of 473 (500180)
02-23-2009 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Peg
02-23-2009 6:37 PM


Re: Storehouses
Thanks for replying to the least relevant part of my post. Am I to take it that you have nothing further to say regarding the topic?
quote:
He probably did not know what they represented, but if we look at the earth today, we can see that there is a literal fullfilment to the symbolisms of the 4 horsemen.
literally we do see war, famine, disease and death
Proving absolutely nothing. There has always been war, famine, pestilence and death. This is a pretty banal fulfilment. You also seem to be confused as to the meaning of the word "literally". You can't have a "literal event" related to the Four Horsemen, without having four bloody great ghouls on horses. What you describe is a symbolic representation of events that may later occur, but it is not literal in any way. There is no such thing as a "literal event", only a literal description of an event or a figurative/symbolic description.
You can't have your literalist cake and eat it.
Mutate and Survive

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Peg, posted 02-23-2009 6:37 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Peg, posted 02-24-2009 1:16 AM Granny Magda has not replied

  
Black
Member (Idle past 5183 days)
Posts: 77
Joined: 11-28-2008


Message 187 of 473 (500182)
02-23-2009 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Granny Magda
02-23-2009 7:46 PM


BUMP
Edited by Black, : edit
Edited by Black, : edit
Edited by Black, : edit

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Granny Magda, posted 02-23-2009 7:46 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Granny Magda, posted 02-23-2009 8:38 PM Black has replied
 Message 189 by Coragyps, posted 02-23-2009 9:16 PM Black has not replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 188 of 473 (500183)
02-23-2009 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Black
02-23-2009 8:05 PM


Sigh.
quote:
6 Assumptions! 6 Assertions! Any Evidence?
1) Are you suggesting that there was no Hebrew word for "known"? Don't be ridiculous. A quick search of Bible Gateway produces 143 references for "known". If they wanted to say "known world" they could have.
2) Are you suggesting that the intent of Genesis was to tell us that God only created the Known World? Don't be absurd. Who made the rest?
3) Which bit of "all flesh died that moved upon the earth" sounds localised to you?
4) That the Matthew 4 is intended literally is evidenced by the use of elevated perspective to provide an enhanced view of the surroundings. If there was nothing to be gained by taking Jesus to an elevated position, why bother taking him up to a mountain? Also I think we are both aware that the preceding verse about Jesus' temptation in the wilderness is traditionally taken as entirely literal.
5) You provide some examples of "all the world" meaning part of the world then. I'll provide examples of it meaning "all the world". We'll see who runs out first.
6) Wikimedia Error
wiki writes:
remember that at six feet, the horizon is only three miles away.
You understand what that means right? Look at that graph. Supposing that the mountain were 10,000 metres tall (taller than Mt. Everest), the horizon would only be just over 250km away. That's not far enough to include the whole of the known world of that time. Parts of the known world would be beyond the horizon, so a literal-but-known-world-only-interpretation doesn't work.
On a flat earth, there is no horizon of course.
quote:
WHAT ABOUT THE FISH? THE BUGS? THE BIRDS?
Please don't insert your own text into quote boxes with my name on them. It's not good etiquette.
I am not going to be dragged into an off-topic conversation about the flood. Suffice to say that they would all have been screwed too.
quote:
Where?
In Message 182.
quote:
I already have.
Er... Where?
Mutate and Survive
Edited by Granny Magda, : Typo and dB code fixes.

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Black, posted 02-23-2009 8:05 PM Black has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Black, posted 02-23-2009 9:20 PM Granny Magda has replied
 Message 222 by ICANT, posted 02-26-2009 5:03 PM Granny Magda has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 189 of 473 (500189)
02-23-2009 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Black
02-23-2009 8:05 PM


Black, welcome aboard! Your avatar is creepier than mine!
Have you read this whole thread yet? Granny has answered many of your questions repeatedly already: you'd save her some typing if you would review what's already been said.
Edited by Coragyps, : No reason given.

"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Black, posted 02-23-2009 8:05 PM Black has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 190 of 473 (500190)
02-23-2009 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Peg
02-23-2009 6:37 PM


Re: Storehouses
literally we do see war, famine, disease and death
Unlike in the last four millenia, when we didn't see any of those?[/OT snark]

"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Peg, posted 02-23-2009 6:37 PM Peg has not replied

  
Black
Member (Idle past 5183 days)
Posts: 77
Joined: 11-28-2008


Message 191 of 473 (500191)
02-23-2009 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Granny Magda
02-23-2009 8:38 PM


BUMP
Edited by Black, : edit
Edited by Black, : edit
Edited by Black, : edit

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Granny Magda, posted 02-23-2009 8:38 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Granny Magda, posted 02-23-2009 10:32 PM Black has replied
 Message 202 by Kapyong, posted 02-24-2009 1:15 AM Black has replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 192 of 473 (500201)
02-23-2009 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Black
02-23-2009 9:20 PM


quote:
Everything that you have quoted is in the context I've stated.
Do you have any evidence of that?
Mutate and Survive?

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Black, posted 02-23-2009 9:20 PM Black has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Black, posted 02-23-2009 10:40 PM Granny Magda has replied

  
Black
Member (Idle past 5183 days)
Posts: 77
Joined: 11-28-2008


Message 193 of 473 (500203)
02-23-2009 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Granny Magda
02-23-2009 10:32 PM


BUMP
Edited by Black, : edit

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Granny Magda, posted 02-23-2009 10:32 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by Granny Magda, posted 02-23-2009 10:55 PM Black has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 194 of 473 (500204)
02-23-2009 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Black
02-22-2009 8:21 AM


What the???
Nice to see that you are interested in truth.
No really. You are supposed to actually try to convince us. Not just throw a bunch of crap against the wall and hope something sticks.
What you should do is go back to your pretty bible verses and tell us why we should interpret them the way you have. Justify your argument. Come on you can do it.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Black, posted 02-22-2009 8:21 AM Black has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Black, posted 02-23-2009 11:05 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 195 of 473 (500205)
02-23-2009 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Black
02-23-2009 10:40 PM


Well I have scripture too and we can't both be right...
Perhaps you could provide a specific chapter and verse quotation that contradicts the model I have presented?
Even if Matthew 4:8 is meant figuratively, which I am still not convinced it is, and even if it does refer only to the known world, which is your own assertion, I have quoted many passages in this thread. Together they add up to a big picture, a picture that bares a strong resemblance to both pagan cosmologies and to the Book of Enoch.
Can you cite any verse that directly contradicts this model? Or not? You claim to have the scripture, so this should be easy.
Mutate and Survive

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Black, posted 02-23-2009 10:40 PM Black has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Black, posted 02-23-2009 11:01 PM Granny Magda has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024