Laws of Conservation?

Hi Jason D, There is no 'source' of matter, matter is the result of our universe having the laws it has. There could, theoretically, exist a universe in which no matter exists. Time is not a thing in that sense. Time is a unit of measurement relevant only to those who can measure it. To the universe there is no 'time' in the functional sense. It is only a thing to us.The BB did not create anything, things exist due to the BB but only because the BB is the moment that spacetime expanded and cooled off enough to be able to form matter. Time is a function to humans that can use it as a unit of measurement. In that sense 'time' does not exist beyond our usage of it.

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"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Hi Huntard, Pardon the minor quibble my Dutch friend, but I don't think this reads properly.If there was no cosmological expansion there would be no space/time, thus no observable universe. Before this - the BB(cosmological expansion) - there still existed an infinitely dense and infinitely curved universe. Lets define 'nothing' though - Quantum fluctuations, particle-antiparticle pairs of virtual particles - surely this is 'something'?And just to keep it on topic and bump the thread a bit, particle-antiparticle pairs of virtual particles do appear to violate the laws of conservation, if only for a short time. Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

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"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Awesome! Clearly awesome! Really awesome! In memory of Hoot-mon/Fosdick...yuck! This is awesome for us road comics! This is awesome to alleviate traffic! Aweso...wait, what?! Ok this one is a bit fucked up, but then again, who am I to judge. I'm coming with you, grab a couple of parentally consented 14 year olds for the trip!

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"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Spacetime does have a point of origin, the Big Bang(cosmological expansion). What does not have a point of origin - currently - is the universe, because the universe does not require spacetime to exist for it(the universe) to exist.Current cosmological models show spacetime expanding from a singularity(infinite density - infinite curvature). This does not mean that that is the origin of the universe, it's just as far back as our current mathematical theories take us.One proposed theory that gets around the singularity is the Hawkings No-Boundary Universe theory.Which you can read about it here: No Boundary Universe

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A universe that is finite in size but did not begin with a singularity is the result of one attempt to combine aspects of general relativity and quantum mechanics. The history of this no-boundary universe in imaginary time is like the surface of Earth, with the Big Bang equivalent to Earth’s North Pole and the size of the universe increasing with imaginary time as you head south toward the equator.

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A proposal first advanced by Stephen Hawking and Jim Hartle, the no-boundary universe is one in which the universe does not start with a singularity. It uses American physicist Richard Feynman’s proposal to treat quantum mechanics as a sum over histories, meaning that a particle does not have one history in space-time but instead follows every possible path to reach its current state. By summing these historiesa difficult process that must be done by treating time as imaginaryyou can find the probability that the particle passes through a particular point.

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Hope this helped.- Oni

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"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Just to add, Which is what happens to virtual particles.

Agreed. Just my undergrad take on what is clearly outside the scope of my current knowledge.However, I've just been trying to bump that point. Notice in one of my previous posts I used the word appears; it appears to break the laws of consevation. I was hoping someone would jump on that and clear it up better for me.So, how 'bout a quick explanation of what happens to the energy in particle/anti particle annihilation. Which will surely require more of an explanation. If you don't want to bother, cool. Yes, I read your previous post to Black, "magic"...? lol

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"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Universe = isolated systemEverything else within it = not an isolated systemHere's an easy to understand wiki definition: Isolated system

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In the natural sciences an isolated system, as contrasted with a open system, is a physical system that does not interact with its surroundings. It obeys a number of conservation laws: its total energy and mass stay constant. They cannot enter or exit, but can only move around inside. An example is in the study of spacetime, where it is assumed that asymptotically flat spacetimes exist.

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Truly isolated physical systems do not exist in reality (except for the universe as a whole), because, for example, there is always gravity between a system with mass and masses elsewhere.

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However, if you really want to get deeper into it, try this link: Isolated System/Berkely UniversitySure, but who created the creator?

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"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Black, the point you seem to be missing is that the universe IS space, therefore if there is "space outside the universe", it would be consider part of the universe and thus NOT "outside space".There can exist no space "outside" of existance, existance is space, period. The universe is an isolated system because there is nothing "outside" of it to interact with. It is self contained within the spacetime that IS the universe itself.

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"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Hi Fosdick, I would then say that they missed the point. And try to reference them somewhere where a clearer explanation can be given, such as: Isolated System.

quote:

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In the natural sciences an isolated system, as contrasted with a open system, is a physical system that does not interact with its surroundings.

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The universe does not have any surroundings, therefore it is considered an isolated system in that sense. It is an isolated system, not isolated as in,

Those are seperate definitions.An isolated system is: "a physical system that does not interact with its surroundings.".Edited by onifre, : greetings

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"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

You went from harping on the word outside to the word surroundings.The universe is considered an isolated system becauses the energy in the system remains consistent. There is no "outside/surroundings" so, nothing from the outside affects the system (and vice versa). Even though energy may be changing from one form to another, energy is not lost from the system. The total quantity of matter and energy available in the universe is a fixed amount and never any more or less, thus it is an isolated system. What would you call the space in between the parallel universes, the tiny microscopic space?

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"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

I can tell, by your actual attempt at answering the "space between parallel universes" question. I don't - "the space between the parallel universes" - was as nonsensical as - "the space outside the universe". I was hoping that would be realized when you read the question. I guess I should have tried a different question. Sorry The only time space is misused is when the physics term spacetime is taken into a philosophical discussion. That is when musings such as "space outside the universe" gets thrown into the discussion. If a clear understanding of what is meant by spacetime is not known to someone, it can get confusing when trying to conceptualize "nothingness". Which is where I think questions like "outside the universe" come from, just a lack of knowledge on what spacetime is.

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"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Except for a photon at (c).I don't know if that's what he was refering to, but at (c) this statement of his is correct,

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"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Let me back track a bit, since I didn't properly take into consideration the word "absolute".Also, the definition of stasis I am refering to is: a state of static balance or equilibrium.With that said, at light speed(c), the time dilation is infinite, so the photon does not age any or experience time. In the photon's own frame of reference, it has zero time with us, so it cannot evolve in any sense in its own experience while it interacts with the universe we see. I would call this stasis, as per the definition I provided above.Now, as far as "absolute" goes, it is almost impossible to do any experiment that would establish the photons rest mass to be exactly zero, so "absolute", if that is what we are refering to, its rest mass(M rest), cannot be stated so they are considered to have no M rest. There's a bit more to that but that should be good for now.I have no reference for this other than school notes, perhaps cavediver can explain it better, or give us both a reference. Correct, but to a photon at the speed of light, time dilation is infinte. So it's not that there wouldn't be time, it just doesn't experience the effects of time. *nod* As per the definition I provided for stasis, it only means that the photon does not age or evolve or experience any time.If he was refering to some other form of stasis then I would be curious as to what he's even talking about. I tried to piece his post together the best I could.Edited by onifre, : clearify Edited by onifre, : spelling

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"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Sure, but first can you tell me what is meant by "GR breaks down at the singularity"...? In your own words, please.Also, can you show me a time when there was no universe...?Just trying to get a few specifics out of the way before we engage in conversation, if you don't mind.- Oni

Hi Robert, thanks for the reply.First, I am by no means the expert cavediver is in this subject so my responses will be to the best of my knowledge. The problem as I see it with your statement is the word "event".Let me try to work the answers backwards and then arrive at why "event" is not conceptually right. Using general relativity is how they arrive at the conclusion that the universe at T = 0 is infinitely dense and curved. GR does not stop working, it simply does not equate at sub-atomic levels, therefore the geometry of spacetime stops making sense to us. This is refered to as a singularity, but keep in mind that it does NOT mean that the singularity itself is a "thing" that takes place at a moment in 'time'.The BB/cosmological expansion is what spacetime is, therefore at levels where space, as we understand it, stops making sense, it cannot be said that space exists. If there is no space then there is no place for an "event" - which must invoke cause first, and time - can take place. So, the singularity, first isn't a 'thing', and more imporatantly, is not an event. It is the result of an equation that goes to infinum. What is expected is a unifying theory that incorporates relativity to QM. GR does not go away, it must still be valid if a theory is going to explain both micro and macro states. This is beyond my level of knowledge though and is simply what I've gathered from reading various books on the subject. First, time is a property of our 3D space. It however, is NOT a 'thing' either. It is a unit of measurement used by those who have the ability to measure. Outside of that time is meaningless. Problem. Nothing can begin without time. "To begin" is a reference to time itself, therefore, how can you have an event take place in space without invoking a time for it to start? - logically impossible The BB is also not an 'event', just to get that concept out of the way. The BB is simply the moment of expansion into 3D space, and time.Also, your statements are getting a bit nonsensical - no offense.Time cannot "come into existance" since time itself is the essence of things come into existance. Time does not arise. Just as length does not arise. Nor does width arise. Time, length and width are all units of measuring, they are not things - they are simply abstract concepts.And again: How can you begin something without a time for it to start...?- Oni

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"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky