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Author Topic:   A Designer Consistent with the Physical Evidence
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 46 of 327 (500436)
02-26-2009 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Peg
02-26-2009 6:16 AM


Peg writes:
My simple mind at work here, but how can there be design without a designer???
Advocates of intelligent design work very hard to convey the impression that their work is scientific and not religious. When people like yourself draw associations between the designer and the God of the Bible, which is the problem with your Message 31, it directly contradicts their claims of scientific legitimacy.
If this still doesn't make sense then this isn't really the place to discuss it. If you propose a new thread we can discuss it there. This thread is about how well the proposed designer comports with the available evidence.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Peg, posted 02-26-2009 6:16 AM Peg has not replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 47 of 327 (500437)
02-26-2009 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Dawn Bertot
02-26-2009 3:47 AM


Re: Rants in E- Minor
Hi Bertot,
I think you may be getting a little too emotionally caught up in the discussion. The week off will do you good. I think if you reread your post upon your return next week it's inappropriateness, both in terms of topic and tone, will be clear to you in ways that weren't apparent while you were composing it.
Because of your persistent Forum Guidelines violations, when you return, whether next week or next year, the next serious guidelines violation will result in a permanent suspension.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-26-2009 3:47 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 48 of 327 (500438)
02-26-2009 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Peg
02-26-2009 6:16 AM


My simple mind at work here, but how can there be design without a designer???
If we assume that there is a design, then it basically follows there is a designer. Whether or not that designer is intelligent is where science and ID part company. What kind of designer do you think is implied after examining the evidence? Do you just infer that there was one, and it was intelligent or does the evidence make it possible to make to more detailed (if tentative) conclusions?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Peg, posted 02-26-2009 6:16 AM Peg has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 49 of 327 (500497)
02-26-2009 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Peg
02-26-2009 6:16 AM


the kaleidoscope problem
Hi Peg,
My simple mind at work here, but how can there be design without a designer???
Is a water molecule something that is designed? At first glance it is just a rather unremarkable chemical, not even a pretty molecule, compared to the intricate patterns of other molecules. However it is one with some rather unique characteristics, several of them important to life as we know it, and without water being water life would not be like what we know as life - if it existed at all.
... how can there be design without a designer???
The pattern of a snowflake is individually intricate and symmetrical in several different ways, yet this is a result of the interaction of air, temperature and water molecules, those same water molecules necessary for our form of life.
Crystals often occur when water is extracted from minerals solutions, such as salt and sugar crystals, and these too have intricate patterns based on the atomic and molecular characteristics of the minerals in question.
Are we looking at design or the result of natural processes that occur time and again without any "touch" to get them going.
When we look through a kaleidoscope we see a pretty design, however when we look at the other end and inside, we see that it is a random jumble of irregular bits and pieces, and the cause of the pattern is the mirrors through which these bits are viewed.
Does that pattern really exist or is it a product of the way the bits and pieces are viewed?
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : unremarkable

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Peg, posted 02-26-2009 6:16 AM Peg has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Buzsaw, posted 02-26-2009 7:42 PM RAZD has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 327 (500501)
02-26-2009 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by RAZD
02-26-2009 7:24 PM


Re: the kaleidoscope problem
RAZD writes:
When we look through a kaleidoscope we see a pretty design, however when we look at the other end and inside, we see that it is a random jumble of irregular bits and pieces, and the cause of the pattern is the mirrors through which these bits are viewed.
Does that pattern really exist or is it a product of the way the bits and pieces are viewed?
The kaleidoscope was designed and manufactured/created in such a manner to produce the desired effect of the designer. The same goes with the snowflakes. All are said to be different. So far as we know, like the fingerprint, no two match perfectly. Imo, only by intelligent design could this be possible.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by RAZD, posted 02-26-2009 7:24 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by RAZD, posted 02-26-2009 8:03 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 52 by bluescat48, posted 02-27-2009 12:23 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 53 by Rrhain, posted 02-28-2009 1:22 AM Buzsaw has replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 51 of 327 (500506)
02-26-2009 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Buzsaw
02-26-2009 7:42 PM


Re: the kaleidoscope problem
Hi Buz,
The kaleidoscope was designed and manufactured/created in such a manner to produce the desired effect of the designer. The same goes with the snowflakes.
So we are living in a house of mirrors, illusions made to appear as something else?
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Buzsaw, posted 02-26-2009 7:42 PM Buzsaw has not replied

bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 52 of 327 (500524)
02-27-2009 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Buzsaw
02-26-2009 7:42 PM


Re: the kaleidoscope problem
All are said to be different. So far as we know, like the fingerprint, no two match perfectly. Imo, only by intelligent design could this be possible.
Actually no two snowflakes being alike is evidence against an intelligent designer. Accidental characteristics on shoe treads & tire treads act similarly to fingerprints ie. no two are the same. This is do to random wear and has no design at all but the same thing as snowflakes in that no two patterns are the same. If snow flakes were designed they would be all alike.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Buzsaw, posted 02-26-2009 7:42 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
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Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 53 of 327 (500613)
02-28-2009 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Buzsaw
02-26-2009 7:42 PM


Buzsaw writes:
quote:
The kaleidoscope was designed and manufactured/created in such a manner to produce the desired effect of the designer. The same goes with the snowflakes. All are said to be different. So far as we know, like the fingerprint, no two match perfectly. Imo, only by intelligent design could this be possible.
We're back to the question nobody ever answers!
Is there anything that happens on its own or is god required for everything?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Buzsaw, posted 02-26-2009 7:42 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Buzsaw, posted 02-28-2009 11:33 PM Rrhain has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 327 (500656)
02-28-2009 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Rrhain
02-28-2009 1:22 AM


Rrhain writes:
Is there anything that happens on its own or is god required for everything?
God created one man from the dust. Then he created one woman from the rib of man and ?. From there he advocated how man should live. Free will pretty much determined where man would go from there. Nevertheless, divine providence worked to insure the survival and welfare of the human race and the planet at large.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Rrhain, posted 02-28-2009 1:22 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Rrhain, posted 03-01-2009 3:58 AM Buzsaw has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 327 (500657)
02-28-2009 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by bluescat48
02-27-2009 12:23 AM


Re: the kaleidoscope problem
bluescat writes:
If snow flakes were designed they would be all alike.
Perhaps then, as man created the kaleidescope to create symmetrical designs, so God designed the process of crystallization of snowflakes to make symmetrical designs as observed.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by bluescat48, posted 02-27-2009 12:23 AM bluescat48 has not replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 56 of 327 (500671)
03-01-2009 3:58 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Buzsaw
02-28-2009 11:33 PM


Buzsaw responds to me:
quote:
quote:
We're back to the question nobody ever answers!
Is there anything that happens on its own or is god required for everything?
God created one man from the dust. Then he created one woman from the rib of man and ?. From there he advocated how man should live. Free will pretty much determined where man would go from there. Nevertheless, divine providence worked to insure the survival and welfare of the human race and the planet at large.
And thus, Buzsaw joins the ranks of avoiding the question. It's a simple either/or question, but nowhere in there do you find a specific answer. Let's try again, shall we?
Is there anything that happens on its own or is god required for everything?
"Yes, there are things that happen on their own."
"No, all things require god."
Which is it?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Buzsaw, posted 02-28-2009 11:33 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Percy, posted 03-01-2009 7:43 AM Rrhain has not replied
 Message 58 by Buzsaw, posted 03-03-2009 6:34 PM Rrhain has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 57 of 327 (500674)
03-01-2009 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Rrhain
03-01-2009 3:58 AM


Rrhain writes:
Is there anything that happens on its own or is god required for everything?
Once they start calling the designer God we've got all the information we need.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Rrhain, posted 03-01-2009 3:58 AM Rrhain has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 327 (501002)
03-03-2009 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Rrhain
03-01-2009 3:58 AM


God Rested After Creation
Rrhain writes:
"Yes, there are things that happen on their own."
We are not all created by God; none of us alive today or yesterday or last year or last month, last century, last millennium etc have been created by God; not even Noah.
One man, Adam, was created by God. All others have procreated from Adam without God designing or creating each. God's creative work on humans and the species ended on day six of Genesis one. Thus the sabbath rest as God rested on the seventh day.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Rrhain, posted 03-01-2009 3:58 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Coyote, posted 03-03-2009 10:22 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 60 by Percy, posted 03-04-2009 8:02 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 61 by onifre, posted 03-04-2009 12:24 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 66 by Rrhain, posted 03-06-2009 8:43 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 59 of 327 (501054)
03-03-2009 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Buzsaw
03-03-2009 6:34 PM


Re: God Rested After Creation
We are not all created by God; none of us alive today or yesterday or last year or last month, last century, last millennium etc have been created by God; not even Noah.
One man, Adam, was created by God. All others have procreated from Adam without God designing or creating each. God's creative work on humans and the species ended on day six of Genesis one. Thus the sabbath rest as God rested on the seventh day.
And where in the scientific literature did you find that?
Or are you just preaching your particular religious belief in the Science Forum? And in the guise of science?
(I thought Intelligent Design was supposed to be science! You've just given the whole sordid scheme away with your preaching.)

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Buzsaw, posted 03-03-2009 6:34 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 60 of 327 (501091)
03-04-2009 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Buzsaw
03-03-2009 6:34 PM


Re: God Rested After Creation
Same reaction as Coyote: all your talk of God and Adam and the sabbath and resting on the seventh day just convinces people that intelligent design is not science but religion.
Advocates of intelligent design must cringe every time you post.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Buzsaw, posted 03-03-2009 6:34 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Buzsaw, posted 03-05-2009 11:54 PM Percy has replied

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