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Author Topic:   EXPELLED: No Intelligence Allowed - Science Under Attack
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 211 of 438 (490416)
12-04-2008 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by Percy
10-31-2008 8:36 PM


Re: Watching Expelled
I am curious if you ever finished watching this?
I just "rented" *coughpiratebaycough* and watched this for myself to see the trainwrech and I noticed a curious thing towards the end. They actually sort of let Dawkins talk and finish his sentences and he really isn't saying anything all that controversial.
That is unless you are both hyper-sensitive and religious.
It made me think that is really what this film was all about. Trying to increase support from a bench of people of faith who haven't been rallied to the cause of ID because it hasn't hit home for them. The take home message from Dawkin and PZ for a low-information viewer who is also one of the faithful is that this whole thing is an attack on their belief. They especially seemed to emphasize PZ when he talked about how religion should just be, "something you do on the weekend for fun." ( he really didn't do himself any favors in this one )
This was a movie designed to shore up the base. Thats all. And in that right I think it was quite effective.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Percy, posted 10-31-2008 8:36 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Percy, posted 12-04-2008 12:20 PM Jazzns has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 212 of 438 (490422)
12-04-2008 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Jazzns
12-04-2008 10:48 AM


Re: Watching Expelled
No, I haven't gotten back to it yet, don't know if I will, at least not soon. Going into the holiday season my free time is getting more and more sparse.
I agree with your portrayal of the film as trying to recruit the already faithful to the creationist cause.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Jazzns, posted 12-04-2008 10:48 AM Jazzns has not replied

Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4228 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 213 of 438 (490428)
12-04-2008 1:20 PM


I saw the movie when it was at theaters, with a friend from this site, who introduced me to this site. If you want to see this movie in a humourous light, watch it with an intoxicated hardcore evolutionist. I wont give his name as we hold many different views and he may wish to remain anonymous on here. I just remeber him shouting "Lies!" and "Bullshit!" over and over agin in the theater, it was really funny.

Replies to this message:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 214 of 438 (490438)
12-04-2008 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Artemis Entreri
12-04-2008 1:20 PM


I saw the movie when it was at theaters, with a friend from this site, who introduced me to this site. If you want to see this movie in a humourous light, watch it with an intoxicated hardcore evolutionist. I wont give his name as we hold many different views and he may wish to remain anonymous on here. I just remeber him shouting "Lies!" and "Bullshit!" over and over agin in the theater, it was really funny.
Why would someone being truthful be funny since the movie is lies & bullshit.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


(1)
Message 215 of 438 (490467)
12-04-2008 11:14 PM


Film critic Roger Ebert comments on Ben Stein's "Expelled"
I first posted this elsewhere, having lost track that this topic existed.
http://blogs.suntimes.com/...008/12/win_ben_steins_mind.html
Found via Panda's Thumb, which in turn found it via Bad Astronomy.
A choice bit, which was quoted by "Panda's Thumb":
quote:
This film is cheerfully ignorant, manipulative, slanted, cherry-picks quotations, draws unwarranted conclusions, makes outrageous juxtapositions (Soviet marching troops representing opponents of ID), pussy-foots around religion (not a single identified believer among the ID people), segues between quotes that are not about the same thing, tells bald-faced lies, and makes a completely baseless association between freedom of speech and freedom to teach religion in a university class that is not about religion.
That and the rest of Ebert's comments are probably everything you'll ever need to rebut any claims that it is a quality film.
Moose
Edited by Minnemooseus, : Got spastic and clicked "Submit Now" when I meant to click "Preview".

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 216 of 438 (499432)
02-18-2009 4:10 PM


Expelled arrives in Cumberland, WI tonight
A local church is putting on a free showing tonight. Last week the local weekly paper printed an article which was basically a reprint of a press release based on the review of the movie in answersingenesis.com.
The whole article sounded like a press release from the the Discovery Institute. We all know what a pack of liars they are.
I wrote a letter to the editor pointing out the lies, fallacies and half truths. It should be published today. This is a small town so it should get some responses. I doubt many if any will be in support of my view, but I couldn't just let nothing be said.

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by Stile, posted 02-19-2009 2:12 PM Theodoric has replied
 Message 220 by shalamabobbi, posted 02-26-2009 9:36 PM Theodoric has not replied

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 217 of 438 (499637)
02-19-2009 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by Theodoric
02-18-2009 4:10 PM


Re: Expelled arrives in Cumberland, WI tonight
Theodoric writes:
I wrote a letter to the editor pointing out the lies, fallacies and half truths. It should be published today. This is a small town so it should get some responses. I doubt many if any will be in support of my view, but I couldn't just let nothing be said.
May God have mercy on Cumberland
That is, any God who exists and thinks honesty is actually a good thing.
*sigh* Such thoughts used to be taken for granted. It's kinda sad that one needs to clarify God to be "one who holds honesty as a priority".
Um... in other words... good luck

This message is a reply to:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 218 of 438 (499638)
02-19-2009 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Stile
02-19-2009 2:12 PM


Re: Expelled arrives in Cumberland, WI tonight
Well they published my letter. Now to get the feedback or more likely the backlash. We are fairly new in the area, so I don't think many people are familiar with my religious, political and social views. My wife has a rather prominent position in town so I was a little concerned about a letter to the editor. She was quite supportive in me writing the letter. Since we have different last names she might not get much feedback, except from people that know us personally.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Stile, posted 02-19-2009 2:12 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 219 of 438 (500480)
02-26-2009 4:01 PM


Reply to my letter
Well an Ider (actually it seems a YEC) responded to my letter to the paper.
If your interested I posted my letter, the news article, flyer and the response on my blog.
Lots of fallacies and distortions in the response.
Blog not found

shalamabobbi
Member (Idle past 2848 days)
Posts: 397
Joined: 01-10-2009


Message 220 of 438 (500517)
02-26-2009 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by Theodoric
02-18-2009 4:10 PM


Re: Expelled arrives in Cumberland, WI tonight
I don't think 'Expelled' presents any threat to science. Even as 'criticism' from the YEC camp seemingly would pose a threat, what they both in reality do is bring the issues into the public eye. It may be 'bad' PR but it is PR nonetheless. Someone will be made to think about the topic who would otherwise be content to engage in other pursuits and remain oblivious to it all. When any sort of cursory search is done into the matter the reality of which side has any merit becomes apparent rather quickly with todays' high speed information via the net. Those engaged in such efforts essentially end up shooting themselves in the foot.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Coyote, posted 02-26-2009 10:43 PM shalamabobbi has replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 221 of 438 (500520)
02-26-2009 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by shalamabobbi
02-26-2009 9:36 PM


Re: Expelled arrives in Cumberland, WI tonight
I don't think 'Expelled' presents any threat to science. Even as 'criticism' from the YEC camp seemingly would pose a threat, what they both in reality do is bring the issues into the public eye. It may be 'bad' PR but it is PR nonetheless. Someone will be made to think about the topic who would otherwise be content to engage in other pursuits and remain oblivious to it all. When any sort of cursory search is done into the matter the reality of which side has any merit becomes apparent rather quickly with todays' high speed information via the net. Those engaged in such efforts essentially end up shooting themselves in the foot.
The majority of the population doesn't think, or can't think, having not been given the tools to do so in school.
The nonsense that the creationists are pushing is designed to sound good, as all good propaganda must: "they're both theories," "teach the controversy," "critical thinking," the latest "Academic Freedom Act," and all the rest. It is in reality an effort to force their narrow fundamentalist beliefs into the school systems.
Expelled is just another effort in the same direction. The propaganda techniques used in that film would make Goebbels proud.
Those of use who are scientists realize that the creationist arguments don't stand up to scientific scrutiny, but most folks out there aren't as critical.
Creation "science" and its illegitimate stepchild, Intelligent Design, are "designed" to sneak religion back into schools, from which they were banned by the U.S. Supreme Court decades ago. Neither of these endeavors has any relation to science--they are in fact diametrically opposed to science. And if they get their way they will destroy science and impose a theocracy; as the Wedge Document phrased it, "Design theory promises to reverse the stifling dominance of the materialist worldview, and to replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions." There is no way to impose that fundamentalist dogma on science except through a theocracy.
Thanks, but no thanks. We finished with the Dark Ages a few centuries ago, and after The Enlightenment we no longer have to kowtow to the various shamans and their particular gods and demons.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by shalamabobbi, posted 02-26-2009 9:36 PM shalamabobbi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by shalamabobbi, posted 02-27-2009 12:57 AM Coyote has not replied

shalamabobbi
Member (Idle past 2848 days)
Posts: 397
Joined: 01-10-2009


Message 222 of 438 (500525)
02-27-2009 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by Coyote
02-26-2009 10:43 PM


Re: Expelled arrives in Cumberland, WI tonight
Hi Coyote,
Let me clarify my statement. Expelled and the creation research institute are a threat to science in the sense of what they propose to be scientific. They are not however because they have no case to support their arguments.
What struck me about the movie (it reached red box, I was bored) was how small this group is. Several minutes in the movie were taken to show how difficult it was for Ben Stein to locate the office. Once inside we see a couple of secretaries and one or two significant players.
as the Wedge Document phrased it, "Design theory promises to reverse the stifling dominance of the materialist worldview, and to replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions."
Yes they dream big don't they? But who believes their nonsense? Those who already reside in their camp of thought. I have not met anyone yet who became a YEC based on their arguments, only people who were already YECS grasping at the straws offered them. And I have met many more who have rejected the YEC view as a result of looking into the debate. The evidence now is just too overwhelming to deny evolution and the means to access it via the internet too easy. Some of the youtube presentations are literally being attacked in a manner to prevent them from being seen at all.
I'm not suggesting to ignore the fight by any means. I'm saying that there doesn't seem to be any reason to worry about the outcome of the fight.
I just took a look at BS's expelled website. The only threats there were the "academic freedom petition" and an opportunity to purchase a limited edition Ben Stein bobble head..

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Modulous, posted 02-27-2009 3:57 AM shalamabobbi has replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 223 of 438 (500533)
02-27-2009 3:57 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by shalamabobbi
02-27-2009 12:57 AM


What struck me about the movie (it reached red box, I was bored) was how small this group is. Several minutes in the movie were taken to show how difficult it was for Ben Stein to locate the office. Once inside we see a couple of secretaries and one or two significant players.
Was there any mention of the budget of this small group? The last time I heard any info on this it turned out that their budget was like ten times that of the NCSE. Some of the significant players were pulling in way more than I make in a year to compose a single document.
Yes they dream big don't they? But who believes their nonsense? Those who already reside in their camp of thought. I have not met anyone yet who became a YEC based on their arguments, only people who were already YECS grasping at the straws offered them.
I have met a few people that parroted 'Teach the controversy' and that ID sounds perfectly reasonable to them. ID is only the narrow end of their proposed wedge. Whether their wedge will work is an interesting question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by shalamabobbi, posted 02-27-2009 12:57 AM shalamabobbi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by shalamabobbi, posted 02-27-2009 5:33 AM Modulous has replied

shalamabobbi
Member (Idle past 2848 days)
Posts: 397
Joined: 01-10-2009


Message 224 of 438 (500536)
02-27-2009 5:33 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by Modulous
02-27-2009 3:57 AM


wedge or wedgy?
Was there any mention of the budget of this small group? The last time I heard any info on this it turned out that their budget was like ten times that of the NCSE. Some of the significant players were pulling in way more than I make in a year to compose a single document.
The NCSE is a non-profit organisation.
The 4000 members are scientists, teachers, clergy, and citizens with diverse religious affiliations.
This work is supported primarily by membership contributions, with some additional assistance from grants.
I found a figure of $670K for 2003.
From the ICR site:
quote:
The ICR has a staff of ten part-time scientists, each of whom has many other duties besides speaking on creation.
There are thousands of well-qualified creationist scientists today, a large percentage of whom are in the life sciences. Over half of the present and past members of the Board of Directors of the Creation for Research Society, for example, are in biological fields. In addition, of the 29 scientists associated directly with ICR (including the ten staff members, plus trustees, advisory board members, and regional representatives), 17 are in the life sciences. At least 15 scientists in these two groups have regular Ph.D's in Biology from leading universities, and the others all have terminal degrees in closely related fields (biochemistry, medicine, etc.). As far as research is concerned. the ICR staff may be typical. These ten scientists (H. Morris, Gish, Bliss, Barnes, Slusher, Parker, Cumming, J. Morris, Austin, and Rybka) have published at least 150 research papers and ten books in their own scientific fieldsall in standard scientific refereed journals or through secular book publishersin addition to hundreds of creationist articles and perhaps 50 books in creationism and related fields.
The Institute for Creation Research is not well-funded. ICR has five major divisions with many functions and activities, and a current full-time equivalent staff of at least 20 persons. This large and complex operation is financed on a very modest budget of $650,000which is considerably less than the financing available to many university departments of biology, for example. ICR never has initiated or lobbied for any creation lawsuit or legislation, believing that education and persuasion are more appropriate and effective than compulsion. ICR staff members occasionally serve as expert consultants or witnesses in such situations, but these actions are wholly initiated and financed by local groups of concerned citizens.
As far as profits from potential book sales are concerned, this may well be the reason behind much of the opposition to bringing creationist literature into the schools. Evolutionist writers and publishers have for many years reaped tremendous profits from their monopolistic control over school-adopted book sales. Such publishers, in the past, have refused even to examine creationist (or two-model) textbook manuscripts. Accordingly, some of us had to pool our own very limited resources in order to get ICR books published. Rather than being profitable, however, this operation has been at a significant loss to all its investors, each of the six years it has been in existence.
I have met a few people that parroted 'Teach the controversy' and that ID sounds perfectly reasonable to them.
Probably because they are already in a YEC mindset or they haven't thought it out very deeply yet to realise the implications. There is nothing to learn after all from ID 'science'. A few cherry picked arguments sound convincing until it all has to be harmonized as a whole with the rest of the known facts.
Edited by AdminModulous, : No reason given.
Edited by AdminModulous, : Erm, no idea what happened there. I was trying to edit my post, but then the system crashed. I came back and it had edited this post and refused to let me log back in. Sorry about that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Modulous, posted 02-27-2009 3:57 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by Modulous, posted 02-27-2009 6:32 AM shalamabobbi has replied
 Message 226 by Percy, posted 02-27-2009 7:07 AM shalamabobbi has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 225 of 438 (500540)
02-27-2009 6:32 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by shalamabobbi
02-27-2009 5:33 AM


Re: wedge or wedgy?
The NCSE is a non-profit organisation.
The 4000 members are scientists, teachers, clergy, and citizens with diverse religious affiliations.
This work is supported primarily by membership contributions, with some additional assistance from grants.
I found a figure of $670K for 2003.
Sounds about right right.
From the ICR site:
ICR is Creation Research. Stein was looking for the Discovery Institute (I know, it is difficult to keep them straight sometimes)
According to "Baptist Press":
quote:
Discovery Institute, however, with its $4 million annual budget ($1.2 million of which is for the Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture) is heavily funded by evangelical Christians. Maclellan Foundation of Chattanooga, Tenn., for example, awarded $350,000 to the institute with the hope researchers would be able to prove evolution to be a false theory. Fieldstead & Co., owned by Howard and Robert Ahmanson of Irvine, Calif., pledged $2.8 million through 2003 to support the Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture.
According to Charity navigator dot org:
quote:
Income Statement (FYE 12/2006)
Revenue
Primary Revenue $4,150,353
Other Revenue $15,494
Total Revenue $4,165,847
Expenses
Program Expenses $3,031,943
Administrative Expenses $682,431
Fundraising Expenses $281,658
Total Functional Expenses $3,996,032
Payments to Affiliates $0
Excess (or Deficit) for the year $169,815
Net Assets $2,800,102
I haven't seen Expelled - did they mention this at all?
Probably because they are already in a YEC mindset or they haven't thought it out very deeply yet to realise the implications. There is nothing to learn after all from ID 'science'. A few cherry picked arguments sound convincing until it all has to be harmonized as a whole with the rest of the known facts.
Definitely not YEC, more the latter. And that's precisely the the methodology for Wedge. Get people to accept something without thinking of its consequences, and start slippery sloping gradually towards their ends...hoping at each stage to get the next small step through people not thinking deeply about the implications.

Incidentally: the ICR on charity navigator has:
quote:
Revenue
Primary Revenue $6,211,412
Other Revenue $-804,085
Total Revenue $5,407,327
Expenses
Program Expenses $3,408,247
Administrative Expenses $1,385,009
Fundraising Expenses $414,427
Total Functional Expenses $5,207,683
Payments to Affiliates $0
Excess (or Deficit) for the year $199,644
Net Assets $7,613,461
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by shalamabobbi, posted 02-27-2009 5:33 AM shalamabobbi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by shalamabobbi, posted 02-27-2009 8:06 AM Modulous has not replied
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