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Author Topic:   People Don't Know What Creation Science Is
Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2956 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 14 of 336 (500938)
03-03-2009 2:18 PM


Morris and Creation Science
In the thread "Best approaches to deal w/ fundamentalism" Kelly is repeatedly urging us to read What is Creation Science. I was going to respond there, but think that thread is drifting and here is the place to talk CS and specifically this book. In Message 70 Kelly writes:
This does not mean, however, that the "origin results" the evidence in the world.., cannot be observed and tested. That is, we can define two "models" of origins, and then make comparative predictions as to what our observations should find if evolution is true, and conversely, what we should find if creation is true. The model that enables us to do the best job of predicting things which we then find to be true on observation is the model most likely to be true, even though we cannot prove it to be true by actual scientific repetition.
This book is one that I either do not have or cannot find in my library so I have ordered a copy (with expedited shipping!) from Amazon. I will read it and either find a thread to discuss it in detail or maybe start one.
I have read several of Morris' other books, and am not expecting to be surprised. In Scientific Creationism he outlines a series of faux-scientific predictions of 'evolution' (he combines multiple physical and biological sciences under this umbrella) and creation, then shows the evidence and proudly crows that CS is the winner. The problem is that his predictions on all sides are nonsense and/or post hoc. I do not have the book handy, so am going off of memory here, but here is an example (you might want to buckle up, not responsible for damage due to ROFLMAO's here).
Morris claims that evolutionary theory should predict a continuum of elements on the periodic table, where we would see gradations between hydrogen and helium, helium and lithium, etc. "transitional" species between the all of the elements as one evolved into the next complex. Creation science, on the other hand, predicts that the elements should all neatly fit into categories that are discreet, even able to be organized into some form of table or something. Voila! Looks like the evidence supports CS!
I will read it with an open mind, but HM Morris hasn't surprised me yet.

Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Kelly, posted 03-03-2009 2:58 PM Lithodid-Man has replied
 Message 19 by cavediver, posted 03-03-2009 4:09 PM Lithodid-Man has replied

Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2956 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 17 of 336 (500950)
03-03-2009 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Kelly
03-03-2009 2:58 PM


Re: That sounds great Lithodid-man..it is at least a start.
Don't worry, I am only making predictions. When I read it I will, like everything else, evaluate it critically and without bias (to the best of my abilities). I am very capable of acknowledging something is science even though I do not agree with it. For example Fedduccia's old work on non-dinosaurian bird evolution is scientific, however (in all likelihood) wrong.

Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Kelly, posted 03-03-2009 2:58 PM Kelly has not replied

Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2956 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 22 of 336 (500968)
03-03-2009 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by cavediver
03-03-2009 4:09 PM


Re: Morris and Creation Science
Yes, I had planned on finding the exact quote and giving the ref. I would hate to have dreamed this or something! I did find a Morris quote that is at least in support of this view, although not as blatant. However, I am close to positive that the argument I gave is Morris', I just have to find it.
Morris writes:
Calssification and Order: The fact that categories of natural phenomena can be arranged in orderly classification systems (table of chemical elements, biological taxonomy as in the Linnaean system, a heirarchy of star types, etc.) is a testament to creation. That is, if alll entities were truly in a state of evolutionary flux, classification would be impossible
Henry Morris "Scientific Creationism" 1974 ed. pg 21-22.
Edited by Lithodid-Man, : Forgot to add Morris quote!

Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by cavediver, posted 03-03-2009 4:09 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by cavediver, posted 03-03-2009 4:59 PM Lithodid-Man has not replied

Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2956 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 59 of 336 (501029)
03-03-2009 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by cavediver
03-03-2009 4:09 PM


Re: Morris and Creation Science
Cavediver writes:
that has to be one of the most idiotic ideas I have ever heard - this makes typical pseudo-scientific nut-jobs look positively sane. Please please find the actual quote for this, for I would hate for this to be an accidental quote-mine based on failing memory
Well, this will break me of sucking eggs (as my grandmother used to say). I skimmed through the entire Scientific Creationism book, and did not find where he said explicitly that elements evolved. It is either from another work or (quite likely) me interpreting Morris' predictions of evolution vs. creationism.
I do believe that he was trying to imply that evolutionists would expect the ridiculous such as elements evolving, stars evolving, and even the laws of physics.
Morris writes:
A more scientific approach is to make comparitive predictions from the two models, to test their relative capacity to correlate this realm of the basic laws of nature. It seems obvious that the evolution model would predict that matter, energy, and the law are still evolving since they must have evolved in the past and there is no external agent to bring such evolution to a halt
...
The fact is, of course that all observations that have been made to date confirm the straightforward prediction of the creation model; namely, that the basic laws of nature are constant and invariable, and that the basic nature of matter and energy is likewise a constant. There is not as yet the slightest observational intimation that that these entities are evolving at all. That is, the law of gravity, the laws of thermodynamics, the laws of motion, and all other truly basic laws have apparently always functioned in just the way the do now, contrary to a prediction of the basic evolution model.
Emphasis mine.
On forces and fields (here talking about the EM spectrum):
There is a real mystery in this wave phenomenon because it takes place in the "nothingness" of free space - a vacuum. What vibrates this wave motion? No one has answered that question. But it is a doubly puzzling problem for evolution. It is unlikely that wave phenomena could evolve in the void of a vacuum where there is nothing to evolve from.
He also mentions the expectation that we would see stars evolving into other types of stars (which I know we do, however I think he means some kind of progression from simple to the complex) and galaxies evolving into bigger and more more complex galaxies.

Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by cavediver, posted 03-03-2009 4:09 PM cavediver has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Theodoric, posted 03-04-2009 8:59 AM Lithodid-Man has not replied

Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2956 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 62 of 336 (501038)
03-03-2009 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Kelly
03-03-2009 7:26 PM


Re: This is exactly what I didn't want to do.
Kelly,
I must second Coragyps and ask you to not run off so quickly. You are not as alone as these threads would suggest. If you are interested in a specific discussion of "What is Creationism?" I would be willing to (after I read it) engage in a one-on-one discussion where we could each take our time and reply as time allows. It is a good way to get familiar with EvC and express yourself without a pile-up.

Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Kelly, posted 03-03-2009 7:26 PM Kelly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Kelly, posted 03-05-2009 10:25 AM Lithodid-Man has not replied

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