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Author | Topic: Points for a creator (Alaninnont and Subbie only) | |||||||||||||||||||
subbie Member (Idle past 1515 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
Let me take a moment to explain what has happened.
Even though AdminNosy asked you to focus down your message to a couple of narrow topics, Adminnemooseus agreed with me that allowing it to proceed on the basis of a Great Debate would be the best way to proceed. What that means is that you and I should be the only ones posting here, but you do not need to make the changes that AdminNosy asked for. I trust you recognize that it will take me time to respond to each of your points. What I would like to see from you initially is an indication of which portions of your message are from another site or source and a reference to that source. I ask for this since AdminNosy mentioned that some of your post was copied from elsewhere. I will point out initially that the quote you began with specifically asked for evidence. At first blush, it appears that a lot of what you have posted is in fact not evidence, but argument, assumption and apologetics. That's not to say I won't respond to it, I'm simply making an opening observation. So, if you would be so kind as to put quote boxes around the stuff from other sources and identify those sources, I will begin to organize my response(s). For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
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subbie Member (Idle past 1515 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
quote: Well, that's one benefit of a Great Debate format. Feel free to take as long as you like to respond, the thread won't be filling up anytime soon.
quote: There's a third option. It came into existence without a creator. As far as the rest of your comments about the various consequences about where the universe came from, how long it's been been here, what will happen in the future, I strongly suspect that you are speculating about things you really know very little about. I also strongly suspect that your speculations come from some creationist website or other. Big Rip, Big Crunch, Big Loop. Nobody knows. Those who have spent their lives studying these things don't have definitive answers, I certainly am not in a position to give better answers than they are. What's more, I'm not even in a position to evaluate the merits of the various competing theories. However, as it all relates to the topic of this thread, the existence vel non of a creator, the answers to these questions are irrelevant. The basic form of your argument is what is called the god of the gaps. In essence, the god of the gaps argument relies on unanswered questions. Because there are things that we cannot explain or understand, god must have done it. For some people, such as yourself, this is a more satisfying conclusion than accepting that we don't know the answers yet. For others, such as myself, that is no answer at all, because it simply pushes things back a step. You're unwilling to accept the idea of an infinite universe because it contradicts your understanding of the laws of thermodynamics, but you're willing to accept the idea of an infinite creator that violates those same laws. Well, that's okay with me, but it doesn't even approach the level of evidence of the existence of a creator. There's a danger inherent in any god of the gaps argument. Every time a gap is closed, god gets a little smaller. 50,000 years ago, gods were responsible for everything; the weather, the seasons, crops growing, diseases, volcanoes, earthquakes, you name it. Today, we can explain all of these things in naturalistic terms without any divine intervention. Today god has been reduced to creator, retributionist, and occasional miracle worker, and the creator part is on the way out, too. If faith gives you comfort, far be it from me to deprive you of that. But you better find a justification for believing in god other than the fact that there are things about the world that you don't understand, because sooner or later, those things are going to be explained, if they haven't been already. For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
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subbie Member (Idle past 1515 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
quote: While there are some differences, I do in fact group IDers in with creationists for a variety of reasons. That's not really our topic here, but I'd be willing to devote a subthread to it if you wish. If so, reply to this message for that discussion.
quote: The reason relates to part of why I lump IDers in with creationists. Both groups are notorious for including known fallacious information in their arguments. As an example, your claim from the OP that complex organs like the eye could not have evolved is a common one on creationist sites. Actually, the evolution of the eye is very well known. In fact, there are living organisms that exhibit different stages in the evolution of the eye, showing that various intermediate steps are quite functional and beneficial. I'll respond to the rest of your post in my next message so that we can keep this discussion a separate subthread if you want to pursue it. For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
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subbie Member (Idle past 1515 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
quote: I can't. But I also can't rule it out. We're talking about the beginning of the universe. There's no particular reason to assume that the laws of cause and effect that we see as a part of this universe necessarily existed before the universe began.
quote: I understand that. But it doesn't consist of evidence. It's your preference. My preference would be for the Big Loop theory of the universe. It's the one that makes the most sense to me, the one that I'm most comfortable with intellectually. But my comfort level has nothing to do with the facts. Likewise, your desire to live in a universe that corresponds to what you think is more logical has nothing to do with reality. Moreover, it seems you missed the point of my previous post. Resolving what you consider to be logical problems by simply invoking a creator doesn't solve anything. All of your reservations about the initial creation apply equally well to the creator. You think it's more likely that the universe was created than that it always existed, but you have no difficulty assuming that the creator always existed. I suggest that the only reason an infinite creator is more acceptable to you is because you're cultural predisposed to accept it. At least up to this point, you certainly haven't given any evidential reason to prefer one over the other.
quote: Well, if we're talking specifically about the origin of the universe, neither you nor I are in a position to evaluate the evidence or the theories that scientists have developed to explain the evidence. The science and math behind cosmology is so advanced that only a fraction of a percent of people can even begin to fully comprehend all the positions. My suggestion to you, if you truly are interested in learning about this, is to look at science websites, not creationist or ID websites. They are demonstrably unreliable. They have an agenda and distort and fabricate information to fit that agenda. Despite what you may believe or have heard elsewhere, scientists have one agenda, accuracy. What's more, science relies on the peer review process to weed out inaccuracies, whether intentional or not. But beyond all that, I'd suggest to you that the search for evidence proving the existence of god is a fool's errand. If such evidence existed, everyone would believe in the same god. To me, the lack of such unanimity speaks volumes about the quality of hard evidence in support of the proposition. {ABE} I'd also suggest, if you're interested in learning, that you ask questions on this forum. There are a number of people quite learned in many different disciplines who could explain a great deal. However, the best way to learn is to ask questions seeking information, not to jump in and make assertions about topics about which you really have no knowledge. There's nothing wrong with saying something like, "I've heard that the Second Law of Thermodynamics says evolution can't happen. Is that accurate?" However, to make the assertion then argue against people who actually know what the Second Law says and means is a really poor method of learning. It certainly gives the impression that your purpose here has nothing to do with learning, but more with proselytizing. Edited by subbie, : As noted For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
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subbie Member (Idle past 1515 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
Wiki's not bad for an introduction to the issue, and broadly speaking I don't really disagree with what you quoted. The problem with trying to categorize creationists/IDers is that there aren't really any hard and fast distinctions. For example, even among creationists, there are also YECs and OECs. My impression is that, with a very few exceptions, most creo/IDers don't really know what they think, or why, they just don't like "evilution."
quote: Well, this particular thread got put into Great Debate because it's really much too broad for general participation. Threads are usually closed after about 300 posts, and with multiple people making multiple entries, it's impossible to discuss all the issues you raised in your OP in that short span. If you wanted to start another thread discussing one of the topics you raised, that would have a better chance for general participation. However, most of the things you discussed already have threads relating to them, so you might be better off looking into one of those.
quote: That would suit me fine. There's really no rush, this thread will stay here for quite some time. On the other hand, there's no reason we can't continue this while you look into other things as well, if you like. I really have no preference.
quote: Thanks for the heads up, forewarned is forearmed.
quote: I was speaking about scientists as a whole, and didn't mean to suggest that all scientists are interested only in accuracy. In fact, I suspect individual scientists are no more immune from dishonesty or incompetence than any other professional group. However, science as an institution has developed the process of peer review, which functions quite well (although not perfectly) in weeding out the kinds of problems you talk about, as well as simple carelessness and honest self-deception. That's why you will frequently see posters here disparage and disregard creationist and ID works, which almost universally do not use the peer review process.
quote: There's no evidence suggesting that we are in a virtual reality, so entertaining the option violates the rule of parsimony. In essence, that means don't add additional assumptions to any theory unless it's necessary to account for the evidence, and the fewer assumptions needed for any theory, the better. As far as lack of alien contact, there's really nothing to explain. We are searching for extraterrestrial intelligence by looking for non-naturally occurring radio waves. Our planet hasn't been producing such radio waves for much more than 100 years. Thus, it's likely that any alien civilization would have to be within 100 light years of our planet to even be aware that there's any intelligence here. While I agree with what I take to be your general assumption that there's a high likelihood of other intelligence in the universe, I think the likelihood that any of them would have any reason for coming to our planet is very low. Thus, there's nothing to explain. For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
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subbie Member (Idle past 1515 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
quote: Well, if you're talking about the leading names among ID "experts," I think you are correct. I'm not sure what you mean by "not neccessarily during the evolutionary process." IDers generally postulate that designer intervention is necessary to account for certain steps in the evolutionary process. Exactly which steps depend on which IDer you're talking about. Behe tries to identify organisms or parts of organisms that are Irreducibly Complex, that cannot have arisen through a series of small steps. Dembski, on the other hand, argues that certain steps in the evolutionary process are so improbable that they couldn't have happened without the influence of an intelligent agent.
quote: The possibility that you missed is that they are out there but we just haven't met yet.
quote: I believe your understanding of cosmic inflation is flawed. This is far outside my area of expertise, but my understanding is that it was the fabric of space that expanded, not matter itself. Matter cannot move through space faster than the speed of light, but space itself is not subject to that limitation. I do not believe that it's possible for our electronic transmissions to move faster than light. If you have an authority that says otherwise, I'd be curious to look at it.
quote: I'm no futurist, but if I had to guess I'd guess we'll reach that stage, probably sooner than a few thousand years. For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
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subbie Member (Idle past 1515 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
quote: That quote is so riddled with elementary grammatical errors I cannot help but conclude that it was written by someone who lacks sufficient education in the subject to speak authoritatively about it.
quote: That's a possibility, but there's no reason to adopt it as a position in the absence of evidence. A related concept that some scientists are pursuing is what is call "panspermia." That's the theory that precursors to life, or very simple one-celled organisms, arrived here via meteorites billions of years ago. For someone who's seeking an answer to ultimate questions of origin, however, this only pushes things back a step. Where did that life come from? So, while these things are interesting to contemplate, like any creator hypothesis they do nothing more than add a further complication without really explaining anything. Thus unless there is actual evidence to support the hypotheses, there's no real reason to believe in them
quote: But science does much, much more than reproduce and test. And there are ways to test and reproduce besides laboratory experimentation. Science studies the evidence, makes predictions based on that evidence, then looks for more evidence to support the prediction. Let me give you an example. Einstein proposed, among many other things, that gravity produces a curvature in space. If this is accurate, light waves will be curved as they pass objects in space and, if the object is massive enough, this curvature will be detectable. So, in 1922 a number of scientists went to Australia to take pictures of a solar eclipse to see if they could detect the curvature. They did, thus providing very powerful confirmation of Einstein's theory. The same thing can be done for evolution. Biologists predicted that a certain type of fossil, with certain fairly specific characteristics, would be found at a particular time in the past. Paleontologists went looking in rocks that were of the proper age and, lo and behold, they found Tiktaalik, just as predicted. This provided powerful confirmation of the Theory of Evolution. So, while we can't re-evolve the history of life on this planet, we can test the predictions of a theory. And, while nobody can reproduce Tiktaalik, any other scientist can do the same work that the Tiktaalik scientists did and come up with the same results. Thus while the event is not reproducible or testable, the science investigating is both testable and reproducible.
quote: Yes, but I was careful to point out that I don't believe that that's what happened, because as far as I'm able to determine, there isn't sufficient evidence to support the theory. Logic only gets us so far. Logic is a vital part of science, but logic alone gives us philosophy, not science. Science depends on evidence. For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
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subbie Member (Idle past 1515 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
quote: Well, "a thousand million, million parts slower" hardly seems like "[a]ny slower" to me. But beyond that, can you cite me to an online, non-creationist source for the Hawking quote? It smells fishy.
quote: No, we need very specific and limited condition for our life to exist. There's no reason to assume that different life can't arise under different conditions.
quote: Source?
quote: I have no idea what you mean by "quadrillions of loops," so I can't begin to guess what point you're making. Once we've cleared these up a little bit, I'll move on to the amino acid part. For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
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subbie Member (Idle past 1515 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
Be careful, you're starting to drift into Gish Gallop territory. (Look it up if you don't know what I mean.) Let's try to restrict each post and subthread to a single topic, ok?
You wrote First of all, in the beginning the universe expanded at precisely the right rate. Any slower and it would have collapsed back onto itself. Any faster and stars and galaxies wouldn't have formed. Stephen Hawking in "A Brief History of Time" says that if it had been a thousand million, million parts slower, the conditions for life would not have existed. I can see the elements, stars, and planets forming following only the physical laws of the universe. The Hawking quote you supplied does not support what you said. Hawking says nothing about conditions for life, at least not in the quote that you supplied. I haven't read his book, so I can't guess what else might be in it.
quote: The problem with this is that creationist sources lie about quotes. That's why I'm always going to ask for a non-creationist source for any quote. So, you propose a quote from Hawking to support your belief in a creator. Do you know what Hawking himself says about this? Here are a couple of quotes:
What I have done is to show that it is possible for the way the universe began to be determined by the laws of science. In that case, it would not be necessary to appeal to God to decide how the universe began. This doesn't prove that there is no God, only that God is not necessary. [Stephen W. Hawking, Der Spiegel, 1989] The intelligent beings in these regions should therefore not be surprised if they observe that their locality in the universe satisfies the conditions that are necessary for their existence. It is a bit like a rich person living in a wealthy neighborhood not seeing any poverty. [Stephen Hawking, A Brief History of Time (New York: Bantam, 1988), p. 124.] It seems to me that you are free to come to whatever conclusions you wish to regarding Hawking's quote, but the evidence that you've cited isn't enough to support such conclusions in someone who certainly understands the subject quite a bit more than you or I do. For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
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subbie Member (Idle past 1515 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
You never told me where Wiki talks about water, so I did my own searching. Here's what I found:
1. Wiki says there's 326,000,000 cubic miles of water. 2. Wiki says the question of the origin of water on this planet isn't settled. Hardly a compelling argument that there must be a creator. For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
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subbie Member (Idle past 1515 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
quote: Yes, I know that's been your point. However, because nobody can present any credible analysis of exactly what conditions are required for life, much less how likely is it that any of those conditions will occur, your point is really nothing more than, "I don't think it's likely so I don't believe it." Again, hardly a compelling argument. For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
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subbie Member (Idle past 1515 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
quote: Whether you personally are arguing for anything or not is immaterial; you are presenting arguments for a particular point of view. It is these arguments that I am responding to.
quote: Since I'm an attorney, we ought to get along just fine.
quote: And the point that I've been trying to make is that it's impossible to assign any kind of meaningful probabilities to the "long list of of coincindences [sic]" you keep referring to. For a start, you've yet to even begin to describe what you think these coincidences are.
quote: Agreed. However, that bears no relationship whatsoever to the topic at hand. You assume that the world was created with specific conditions suited to the life that exists here. You ignore the possibility that instead life evolved to fit the conditions that existed here before life began. This solves the mystery completely. For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
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subbie Member (Idle past 1515 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
I'm saying that creationist sources lie. Not always, and not exclusively. But they lie with a high enough frequency so as to rend anything they say suspect. Note carefully, I did not say automatically wrong, I said suspect. That's why I look for another, non-creationist source.
quote: From dictionary.com: quote: noun, a quotation. From merriam-webster.com: quote: noun, quotation. If you wanna get pedantic on my ass, you better check a source first, mate.
quote: Seriously? You want to see evidence for the proposition that creationist sources lie? For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
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subbie Member (Idle past 1515 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
The quote that you presented, in its entirety, is as follows:
Why did the universe start out with so nearly the critical rate of expansion that separates models that recollapse from those that go on expanding forever, so that even now, ten thousand million years later, it is still expanding at nearly the critical rate? If the rate of expansion one second after the big bang had been smaller by even one part in a hundred thousand million million, the universe would have recollapsed before it ever reached its present size. The word life appears nowhere in that quote. In particular, what it says about a slower expansion is that the universe would have collapsed before it reached its present size. This of course says nothing about the presence of life before the universe reached its present size. It says nothing whatsoever about planets and stars not forming if the expansion had been faster. For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
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subbie Member (Idle past 1515 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
quote: Then you didn't read far enough. From dictionary.com:
quote My emphasis/kwoʊt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kwoht] Show IPA verb, quot⋅ed, quot⋅ing, noun —verb (used with object) 1. to repeat (a passage, phrase, etc.) from a book, speech, or the like, as by way of authority, illustration, etc. 2. to repeat words from (a book, author, etc.). 3. to use a brief excerpt from: The composer quotes Beethoven's Fifth in his latest work. 4. to cite, offer, or bring forward as evidence or support. 5. to enclose (words) within quotation marks. 6. Commerce. a. to state (a price). b. to state the current price of. —verb (used without object) 7. to make a quotation or quotations, as from a book or author. 8. (used by a speaker to indicate the beginning of a quotation.) —noun 9. a quotation. 10. quotation mark. Idiom 11. quote unquote, so called; so to speak; as it were: If you're a liberal, quote unquote, they're suspicious of you. Origin: 1350—1400; 1880—85 for def. 9; ME coten, quoten (< OF coter) < ML quotāre to divide into chapters and verses, deriv. of L quot how many From Merriam-Webster:
1. 1quote (verb) My emphasis2. 2quote (noun) 3. pull quote Clicking on the second definition gets to this:
2quote My emphasisFunction: noun Date: 1888 1 : quotation An honest person would admit his mistake.
quote: I will admit that I know one creationist who doesn't lie; Kurt Wise. If you read the link, you will see that he believes in a young Earth only because scripture tells him, and he honestly admits that the scientific evidence doesn't support his belief.
quote: I will have to admit that I haven't read every creationist site. I will also admit that they don't lie all the time, and I cannot give you an exact percentage. However, none of that is really relevant to my point that they are unreliable. Obviously, this is getting us rather far afield from the topic, so let's do this. You pick any creationist site you like, or as many as you like, and start a new thread with the links. I guarantee that just about any scientifically minded person here will be able to find multiple lies on that site.
quote: Because I see no evidence for one. While I fully acknowledge that there are unexplained things in the world, that's no reason to assume the existence of an unobserved creator to explain them. As I described upthread, for thousands of years, people have attributed all sorts of things they didn't understand to gods of different sorts. Virtually all of those things have been explained in naturalistic terms. The god of the gaps argument is notoriously unsatisfying. You might cite to the fact that most people around the world believe in one god or another as a reason to believe in the existence of god. I would reply that if they all believed in an actual being, I would expect that they would all, or mostly, believe in the same one.
This cite breaks down world religions by number of adherents. None even has a majority, and the biggest religion, Christianity, is deeply divided between Catholics and Protestants, who differ considerably on important matters of doctrine, sometimes to the point of violence and death. And Protestants are rather fractured as well, between fundamentalists and non-fundamentalists. The second biggest religion, Islam, is similarly divided. Hardly a compelling argument, and certainly not enough to convince me. For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
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