Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 78 (8905 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 04-21-2019 4:23 AM
15 online now:
Minnemooseus (Adminnemooseus), Tangle (2 members, 13 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: WookieeB
Post Volume:
Total: 849,955 Year: 4,992/19,786 Month: 1,114/873 Week: 10/460 Day: 10/91 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
1314
15
161718Next
Author Topic:   Evolution would've given us infrared eyesight
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 211 of 265 (501190)
03-04-2009 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Coyote
03-04-2009 11:46 PM


Re: Pertaining Pesky Post Abiogenesis Primitives
Coyote writes:

Or not! That's they key!

What? You mean they may not die? Please explain.

Edited by Buzsaw, : Typo fix


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Coyote, posted 03-04-2009 11:46 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Coyote, posted 03-04-2009 11:58 PM Buzsaw has responded

Coyote
Member (Idle past 212 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 212 of 265 (501191)
03-04-2009 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Buzsaw
03-04-2009 11:53 PM


Re: Pertaining Pesky Post Abiogenesis Primitives
Coyote writes:

Or not! That's they key!

What? You mean they may not die? Please explain.


Those that die or fail to reproduce are weeded out. Those that survive pass on their characteristics.

Go back and read the post I was responding to and it will all become clear.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Buzsaw, posted 03-04-2009 11:53 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by Buzsaw, posted 03-05-2009 12:36 AM Coyote has not yet responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 213 of 265 (501194)
03-05-2009 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by Coyote
03-04-2009 11:58 PM


Re: Pertaining Pesky Post Abiogenesis Primitives
Coyote writes:

Those that survive pass on their characteristics.

What is the mechanism for first living organism/s saving their characteristics for the next generation before genetic information had evolved in the genesis of evolution of living organisms?

Edited by Buzsaw, : Typo fix


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Coyote, posted 03-04-2009 11:58 PM Coyote has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Vacate, posted 03-05-2009 2:06 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 221 by Nuggin, posted 12-24-2009 9:39 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Vacate
Member (Idle past 2707 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 214 of 265 (501196)
03-05-2009 2:06 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by Buzsaw
03-05-2009 12:36 AM


Re: Pertaining Pesky Post Abiogenesis Primitives
What is the mechanism for first living organism/s saving their characteristics for the next generation before genetic information had evolved in the genesis of evolution of living organisms?

I believe it doesn't have a true answer. There was no "first living organism/s" in that there is no clear way of deciding what life actually is. At some fairly arbitrary point self replicating chemical reactions became life. The best way I can think of to explain that is to ask at what point does a single tree become a forest of trees? Or when does a town become a city, or when does a child become an adult? We cannot give a precise moment because the concept itself is undefinable.

We can obviously see life as much as we can recognize a forest, city, or an adult. We can also assign various criteria for such things, but they aren't real; we just made them up to help us make sense of the world.

There is no good answer to your question Buzsaw because what we call life is just a majority vote. There are several examples of what could be life but is missing one or another criteria, its life... but its not. So if Abiogenesis is true there would not be a recognizable "genesis of evolution" but a series of steps with a grey area that is life but not life. Or not life but behaves like life more so than a chemical reaction.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Buzsaw, posted 03-05-2009 12:36 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Stagamancer
Member (Idle past 3022 days)
Posts: 174
From: Oregon
Joined: 12-28-2008


Message 215 of 265 (501199)
03-05-2009 3:48 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Buzsaw
03-04-2009 11:42 PM


Re: Pertaining Pesky Post Abiogenesis Primitives
2. Aren't we back to square one as to how first organisms replicated their kind before genetic information evolved into the first organism/s?

I believe I've already pointed out that RNA has both the ability to contain genetic information, as well as self-catalyze its replication:

quote:
An RNA enzyme that catalyzes the RNA-templated joining of RNA was converted to a format whereby two enzymes catalyze each other's synthesis from a total of four oligonucleotide substrates. These cross-replicating RNA enzymes undergo self-sustained exponential amplification in the absence of proteins or other biological materials. Amplification occurs with a doubling time of about 1 hour and can be continued indefinitely. Populations of various cross-replicating enzymes were constructed and allowed to compete for a common pool of substrates, during which recombinant replicators arose and grew to dominate the population. These replicating RNA enzymes can serve as an experimental model of a genetic system. Many such model systems could be constructed, allowing different selective outcomes to be related to the underlying properties of the genetic system.

This is the abstract for the paper Self-Sustained Replication of an RNA Enzyme by Tracey A. Lincoln and Gerald F. Joyce

Any questions?


"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Buzsaw, posted 03-04-2009 11:42 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Dr Jack, posted 03-05-2009 9:30 AM Stagamancer has not yet responded

  
Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 211 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 216 of 265 (501229)
03-05-2009 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by Stagamancer
03-05-2009 3:48 AM


Re: Pertaining Pesky Post Abiogenesis Primitives
I believe I've already pointed out that RNA has both the ability to contain genetic information, as well as self-catalyze its replication:

It's generally considered unlikely that the first organisms were RNA (too complicated a molecule). It's more likely that they were self-replicating polypeptide chains (proteins, basically) but your basic point: the first life was a self-replicated molecule with no seperate genetic material stands.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Stagamancer, posted 03-05-2009 3:48 AM Stagamancer has not yet responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 217 of 265 (501232)
03-05-2009 9:50 AM


Interesting Responses
Thanks very much Vacate and Stagamancer. This all is very interesting. I want to do some Reading and thinking before responding.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
RCS
Member (Idle past 714 days)
Posts: 48
From: Delhi, Delhi, India
Joined: 07-04-2007


Message 218 of 265 (540341)
12-24-2009 1:48 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by Larni
03-02-2009 7:05 AM


I thought the Yahweh was omniscient?

Reason why should have had infra red vision too.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Larni, posted 03-02-2009 7:05 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Larni, posted 12-24-2009 7:54 AM RCS has responded

Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 219 of 265 (540359)
12-24-2009 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by RCS
12-24-2009 1:48 AM


Sorry, but that sentence does not make sense: could you rephrase it?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by RCS, posted 12-24-2009 1:48 AM RCS has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by RCS, posted 12-24-2009 9:24 PM Larni has responded

  
RCS
Member (Idle past 714 days)
Posts: 48
From: Delhi, Delhi, India
Joined: 07-04-2007


Message 220 of 265 (540417)
12-24-2009 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by Larni
12-24-2009 7:54 AM


Reason why biblegod should have had infra red vision too.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Larni, posted 12-24-2009 7:54 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by Larni, posted 12-25-2009 6:59 AM RCS has responded

Nuggin
Member (Idle past 599 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 221 of 265 (540418)
12-24-2009 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Buzsaw
03-05-2009 12:36 AM


Re: Pertaining Pesky Post Abiogenesis Primitives
What is the mechanism for first living organism/s saving their characteristics for the next generation before genetic information had evolved in the genesis of evolution of living organisms?

The problem with this question is "first living organism".

There is a very blurry line between self sustained chemical reactions and the first organism.

For example, a strand of protein which has absolutely no function whatsoever aside from self replication -- is that alive?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Buzsaw, posted 03-05-2009 12:36 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 222 of 265 (540434)
12-25-2009 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by RCS
12-24-2009 9:24 PM


Are you trying to ask me the reason why the god of the Christian bible does not have infra red vision?

Or why the god of the Christian bible should have infra red vision?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by RCS, posted 12-24-2009 9:24 PM RCS has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by RCS, posted 12-27-2009 9:43 PM Larni has responded

  
RCS
Member (Idle past 714 days)
Posts: 48
From: Delhi, Delhi, India
Joined: 07-04-2007


Message 223 of 265 (540705)
12-27-2009 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Larni
12-25-2009 6:59 AM


No, I am not asking answers. After all I did not pose a question.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Larni, posted 12-25-2009 6:59 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by Larni, posted 12-28-2009 7:17 AM RCS has not yet responded

Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 224 of 265 (540730)
12-28-2009 7:17 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by RCS
12-27-2009 9:43 PM


I have no idea what you are trying to communicate to me, sorry.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by RCS, posted 12-27-2009 9:43 PM RCS has not yet responded

  
OLEGDEI
Member (Idle past 3279 days)
Posts: 10
Joined: 01-03-2010


Message 225 of 265 (541430)
01-03-2010 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RickCHodgin
01-20-2009 5:24 AM


GOD'S WILL
What people fail to recognize when they make outlandish statements about God is there is absolutely no evidence to support a God.
These statements are made on a emotional basis without providing an factual information to validate their argument. Every Science discipline from molecular biology to genomics have proven Darwin correct period! When people make these crazy claims about a God it comes from their brainwashing that they received from their religious leaders.
There is an excellent website that publishes a free monthly newsletter - Science and Discovery. These folks cover evolution from soup to nuts. There is also the added benefit that these folks take the Bible and disprove every facet of it.
I think this is a must read for everyone who wants to engage in this debate. The website that I would higly recommend for evryone is:
WWW.SCIENCECLUBOFLONGISLAND.COM
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RickCHodgin, posted 01-20-2009 5:24 AM RickCHodgin has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Brad H, posted 01-06-2010 2:11 AM OLEGDEI has not yet responded

  
RewPrev1
...
1314
15
161718Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019