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Author Topic:   People Don't Know What Creation Science Is
Kelly
Member (Idle past 5495 days)
Posts: 217
Joined: 03-01-2009


Message 166 of 336 (501380)
03-05-2009 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by lyx2no
03-05-2009 10:15 PM


You all just keep repeating that
if it makes you feel better. But I know that an honest look around at my posts reveals otherwise.
http://blogs.townonline.com/...oads/2008/03/head-in-sand.JPG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by lyx2no, posted 03-05-2009 10:15 PM lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by lyx2no, posted 03-05-2009 10:41 PM Kelly has not replied

Kelly
Member (Idle past 5495 days)
Posts: 217
Joined: 03-01-2009


Message 167 of 336 (501381)
03-05-2009 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by subbie
03-05-2009 7:36 PM


I cited the source of that quote...
You'll have to find it for yourself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by subbie, posted 03-05-2009 7:36 PM subbie has not replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 168 of 336 (501382)
03-05-2009 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Kelly
03-05-2009 10:25 PM


Re: I am as honest as they come..
Are you really that afraid of giving an honest, straightforward answer?
Either call all scientists liars or admit you might be wrong.

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Kelly, posted 03-05-2009 10:25 PM Kelly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Kelly, posted 03-05-2009 10:40 PM subbie has replied

Kelly
Member (Idle past 5495 days)
Posts: 217
Joined: 03-01-2009


Message 169 of 336 (501383)
03-05-2009 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by lyx2no
03-05-2009 7:55 PM


I can't win..
First I am not giving enough information or answering enough questions, and now I have too many posts. Well, I have said all that there is to say. No need to keep pressing my points. If you want to know more, then read the book I recommended. I can see that I am really wasting my time anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by lyx2no, posted 03-05-2009 7:55 PM lyx2no has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Granny Magda, posted 03-05-2009 10:47 PM Kelly has not replied
 Message 184 by Percy, posted 03-06-2009 9:45 AM Kelly has replied

lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4716 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 170 of 336 (501384)
03-05-2009 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Kelly
03-05-2009 10:17 PM


Who Cares
It's off topic.
Message 1: I do this to eliminate the reference to evolution. If "Creationist Science" is "¬ evolution" then this would be yet another stupid "Evolution-has-problems" thread. Anyone referring to flaws in evolution or evolutionists is off topic in this thread.

Genesis 2
17 But of the ponderosa pine, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou shinniest thereof thou shalt sorely learn of thy nakedness.
18 And we all live happily ever after.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Kelly, posted 03-05-2009 10:17 PM Kelly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Kelly, posted 03-05-2009 10:43 PM lyx2no has replied

Kelly
Member (Idle past 5495 days)
Posts: 217
Joined: 03-01-2009


Message 171 of 336 (501386)
03-05-2009 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by subbie
03-05-2009 10:31 PM


My answer was as straight-forward
as it could be. Read it again to see what I think about evolutionary scientists. I also don't like to call people liars. That seems to be something you all easily do in speaking about creationists, though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by subbie, posted 03-05-2009 10:31 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by subbie, posted 03-05-2009 10:53 PM Kelly has not replied

lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4716 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 172 of 336 (501387)
03-05-2009 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Kelly
03-05-2009 10:28 PM


Re: You all just keep repeating that
Your avatar is supposed to go under you name.

Genesis 2
17 But of the ponderosa pine, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou shinniest thereof thou shalt sorely learn of thy nakedness.
18 And we all live happily ever after.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Kelly, posted 03-05-2009 10:28 PM Kelly has not replied

Kelly
Member (Idle past 5495 days)
Posts: 217
Joined: 03-01-2009


Message 173 of 336 (501388)
03-05-2009 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by lyx2no
03-05-2009 10:38 PM


Who Cares?
I don't know who cares, but I am just responding to questions asked of me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by lyx2no, posted 03-05-2009 10:38 PM lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by lyx2no, posted 03-05-2009 10:49 PM Kelly has not replied

Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 174 of 336 (501389)
03-05-2009 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Kelly
03-05-2009 10:36 PM


You Could Win...
There is only one way for you to win a debate such as this; provide compelling answers to the question that everyone has been asking since the get-go. Tell us about creation science's predictions, discoveries and practical accomplishments. It's that simple.
Or at least it would be, if creation science had ever accomplished anything. As it happens though, all it has to offer is a stock of bad arguments against evolution and a Bible hidden in its back pocket.
Mutate and Survive

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Kelly, posted 03-05-2009 10:36 PM Kelly has not replied

lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4716 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 175 of 336 (501390)
03-05-2009 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Kelly
03-05-2009 10:43 PM


Pete Townshend Cares
Please show me where I asked you where the flaws in evolution were.
Edited by lyx2no, : My heavy-handed typing scared the "h" out of Pete Townsend.

Genesis 2
17 But of the ponderosa pine, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou shinniest thereof thou shalt sorely learn of thy nakedness.
18 And we all live happily ever after.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Kelly, posted 03-05-2009 10:43 PM Kelly has not replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 176 of 336 (501391)
03-05-2009 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Kelly
03-05-2009 10:40 PM


Re: My answer was as straight-forward
But I didn't ask about "evolutionary scientists." If what you said is true, all biologists, all geologists, all physicists, all chemists, basically all scientists would be liars.
Either have the courage of your convictions or admit that you're spreading nonsense.

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Kelly, posted 03-05-2009 10:40 PM Kelly has not replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 177 of 336 (501397)
03-05-2009 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Kelly
03-05-2009 7:08 PM


I'm calling 'shenanigans'!
But just to summerize, the first Law of Thermodynamics states that there can be no creation or annihilation of Mass/Energy.
Since creation science doesn't seem to be your stong suit, we'll deal with the above quote.
Quantum fluctuations violate your entire statement. Quantum fluctuations
quote:
In quantum physics, a quantum fluctuation is the temporary change in the amount of energy in a point in space, arising from Werner Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.
That means that conservation of energy can appear to be violated, but only for small times. This allows the creation of particle-antiparticle pairs of virtual particles. The effects of these particles are measurable, for example, in the effective charge of the electron, different from its "naked" charge.
Not only does the Second Law point back to creation;
How on Earth can you justify that if the "creator" would violate every law also?
First, you don't fully comprehend what you are talking about. Second, you contradict the very act that you claim nature couldn't do by implying that a "creator" is more than capable of doing it without explaining how. What gives here?
Do you not see the error in what you're telling us? That's why these creationist talking points are so stupid, because the only people who believe it have no clue how to see the obvious contradictions in their own worldview, let alone in an argument against a subject they've never fully grasped.
How do you expect any of what you're telling us to be comprehended if you are not making sense?
Either give us a clear-cut description of creation science and explain how you get around the "creator" violating every law YOU mentioned, or admit to it's obvious flaw.
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.
Edited by onifre, : spelling

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Kelly, posted 03-05-2009 7:08 PM Kelly has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22389
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 178 of 336 (501411)
03-06-2009 6:41 AM


To Everyone,
There have been some concerns about topic. In Message 154 Lyx2no gathered Kelly's arguments that are on topic and that attempt to describe creation science. I suggest we focus on those. She claims that creation science's basic points are:
  1. There's a universal law of conservation which preserves natural physical laws across all time and space.
  2. There's a universal law of degeneration or decay.
  3. Microevolution is a reality and is always degenerative.
  4. Macroevolution beyond a "type or species" is impossible.
Kelly, a good place to register your criticisms of evolution is over at Evolutionary Biology as a Science where the last message is Message 28, hint, hint.
You never replied to my message suggesting that you can click on your name to get a list of the threads your participating in, but I hope it was helpful and that you're having an easier time now navigating around the site.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Fix message link.

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 179 of 336 (501420)
03-06-2009 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by Kelly
03-05-2009 10:17 PM


Re: Ask yourself...
How could the existence of distinct species be justified by a theory (evolution) that proclaims ceaseless change as the most fundamental fact of nature? For you, why should there be species or "types" at all? If all life forms have been produced by gradual expansion through selected mutations from a small begining gene pool, organisms should really just grade into one another without distinct boundaries. You cannot take comfort in the fossil record since it is used so well at classifying species and types.
I have asked myself that. I've also asked evolutionary biologists. And received an answer. Here is the wonderful thing: it isn't clear cut. There are many cases when it is difficult to say 'this is a different species', for instance in cases like ring species.
I'm perfectly happy to explain it all to you in a thread that concentrates on evolution, but this isn't that thread. For an intro into the subject I refer you to this post - or, if you'd prefer it in video format you can view Part 1, Part 2, and Part 3. It's a little more than twenty minutes of time and you should have a good start to an answer.
I provide this so that you cannot accuse me of avoiding even trying to answer your question. Note to moderators: The referenced videos even includes reference to "Typology", the method for determining 'types' that Kelly is probably trying to get across here.
Living things were created to multiply after type, and that these created types could be rationally grouped in a hierarchical pattern reflecting themes and variations of the designer was well understood by pre-Darwinian scientists such as Karl Von Linne'.
You said that the Creation Model makes a prediction that has come true. I asked you to back that up, not repeat the claim. So, since you managed to evade my questions I'll simply repeat them and you can decide if you want to actually answer them. This is a topic all about creation science:
The creation model postulates that all the basic types of plants and animals were directly created and did not evolve from other types at all. Consequently the creationist predicts that no transitional sequences (except within each created type) will ever be found, either in the present array of organisms or in the fossil record.
This prediction is borne out in the present assemblage of plants and animals and is obvious to all.
So the creation model is capable of telling us what a 'type' is, how we can know one type from another? After all, how would you know if the prediction has borne out unless you could show us some method of determining a type, right?
You of course understand that you cannot use the fossil record to make determinations about what a type is since that is the evidence of the successful prediction so you'd be caught in a circular argument.
If you don't want to get into that level of detail, if you let us in on this secret model we can derive the predictions for ourselves.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Kelly, posted 03-05-2009 10:17 PM Kelly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Kelly, posted 03-06-2009 10:10 AM Modulous has replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 180 of 336 (501422)
03-06-2009 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Kelly
03-05-2009 9:53 PM


Re: this response doesn't work
You never even read what I posted and never thought of the things I asked you to think of did you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Kelly, posted 03-05-2009 9:53 PM Kelly has not replied

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