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Author Topic:   Demons and such
helena 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5845 days)
Posts: 80
Joined: 03-27-2008


Message 1 of 39 (50193)
08-12-2003 3:59 PM


Hi all,
being new to these forums, and not a native English speaker, I must ask all of you to have some patience with me. Also, I'm sorry if this topic has already been discussed at greater length (in that case a link would be nice)..
In the gospels we read, that men are more or less regularly beset by demons (e.g. Mark 5-1..14) and that Jesus drives them out of the victims' bodies. What is the current explanation by bible literists that this doesn't happen nowadays.
What I mean is, that nowadays we know that diseases are caused by bacteria, viri etc.; We have accepted that a medical condition is not caused by demons or spirits inhabiting one's body.
Especially, I would like to point out Luke(38ff.):
"38 And, behold, a man of the company cried out, saying, Master, I beseech thee, look upon my son: for he is mine only child.
39 And, lo, a spirit taketh him, and he suddenly crieth out; and it teareth him that he foameth again, and bruising him hardly departeth from him.
40 And I besought thy disciples to cast him out; and they could not.
41 And Jesus answering said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you, and suffer you? Bring thy son hither.
42 And as he was yet a coming, the devil threw him down, and tare him. And Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the child, and delivered him again to his father."
where the condition the child is suffering from is (to my opinion) epilepsy, which has nothing to do with "unclean spirits" possessing anyone's body.
So the question is, why can people accept antibiotics from their doctor and cannot at the same time accept evolution by Darwin et al.?
regards,
Alex

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Coragyps, posted 08-12-2003 5:48 PM helena has not replied
 Message 4 by Jake22, posted 08-12-2003 9:05 PM helena has replied

  
helena 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5845 days)
Posts: 80
Joined: 03-27-2008


Message 16 of 39 (50309)
08-13-2003 3:45 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Jake22
08-12-2003 9:05 PM


Hi all,
didn't quite expect as many answers.. Thanks all, I'll try to follow up with some comments..
Jake22 wrote:
quote:
Firstly, the NT often differentiates between when Jesus cast demons out of people and when he healed them from sickness. Some verses go something like, "and then Jesus went to them, healing the people of their sicknesses and casting out all demons."
Alright, but at the time the gospels or indeed the books of the OT were written, some sicknesses were known as such: e.g. leprosy - people knew it was a sickness, they just didn't know how to treat it, so casting people out from society helped to prevent spreading the disease... Some medical conditions seem to have been linked to demonic possession (I for one did not find a verse in any gospel, where it says something about epilepsy)...
quote:
Just as a quick reply to the second post, I agree that people certainly pick and choose what they obey. Some of the instances you mentioned are due to the Christian's own ignorance (i.e. not realizing they are no longer bound by the Mosaic law in terms of the shrimp and Sabbath), some is disobedience (charging interests to other believers), and some is due to the ignorance of others (i.e. the Bible does not say the earth is flat or physically the center of the universe).
I partially agree, partially don't... let's keep on topic (demonic possession) - No offense, but I've been lurking around these forums long enough to see that discussions tend to sway quickly towards certain directions..
quote:
I certainly agree that in a lot of cases, people who consider themselves Christians talk the talk more than they walk the walk. Maybe so many stand up for a literal 6 days of creation but don't bother with other aspects (like lending money without interest) because it's much easier to hold an opinion about something than to actually conduct oneself accordingly when it's undesirable.
good point
quote:
Also, in regards to your question about modern day demons... Some Christians say that God only gave demons authority to inhabit people at the time of Jesus so that by casting them out he could prove he was sent from God and had dominion over demons.
Doesn't strike me as convincing: He (personally at least) isn't here anymore, thus what would they have to fear... 2000 years (more or less) have gone by, I'd be interested what is taking them so long...
quote:
Others claim that demon possession happens today as well. There are the generic stories of people having their eyes dilate, possessing super human strength, and speaking in voices not their own. ...snipped... (primarily missionaries from my understanding) say that it happens in developing countries quite often, probably because of a heightened spirituality in those countries...again, generic stuff like glowing eyes, crawling on walls, and other supernatural type stuff.
Drugs?!
My question though stands, why can bible literists accept medical treatment according to modern standards (compare Leviticus: Many of the conditions described as leprosy might today be diagnosed as lichen, which is no reason for casting somebody out of society), as mankind's understanding of these conditions has outgrown what people held to be true thousands of years ago? And why on the other hand, are they unable to see the validity of other observations (such as astronomy etc.)? Could this be, because e.g. a severed visual nerve is something close at hand and therefore understandable, while Alpha Centaury is quite some way off?
regards,
Alex

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Jake22, posted 08-12-2003 9:05 PM Jake22 has not replied

  
helena 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5845 days)
Posts: 80
Joined: 03-27-2008


Message 17 of 39 (50310)
08-13-2003 4:03 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Jake22
08-13-2003 2:30 AM


quote:
...The OT continues to be important in some ways (such as what some believe to be accurate history, and it demonstrates how much God hates sin), but I don't see it as being very important in that it provides the code of conduct we should follow. I would also be inclined to say that any of the 10 commandments not in the NT is no longer binding (although I'd have to research that one before I gave you a definitive answer).
Not much of a literist, are you?
Correct me if I'm wrong: But "Thou shalt not take the Lord's name in vain." is not reiterated. Does that mean one is allowed to swear?
Also in the light of what you said above: Wouldn't by the same arguments the whole Genesis thing be discardable?
regards,
Alex

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Jake22, posted 08-13-2003 2:30 AM Jake22 has not replied

  
helena 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5845 days)
Posts: 80
Joined: 03-27-2008


Message 22 of 39 (50384)
08-13-2003 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by doctrbill
08-13-2003 1:45 PM


One more thing...
Mostly along the same lines as doctrbill...
How can then anyone stand in for capital punishment, when Jesus explicitly says:
Luke 6:37
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven
or
Luke 6:29
And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.
So if he, as you say "fulfilled" or "did away with" the OT law then, how can anyone claim that justification for capital punishment can be found in the bible ...
I'd still like to hear about demons though
Alex

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by doctrbill, posted 08-13-2003 1:45 PM doctrbill has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by chinger, posted 08-14-2003 8:24 PM helena has not replied

  
helena 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5845 days)
Posts: 80
Joined: 03-27-2008


Message 27 of 39 (50500)
08-14-2003 4:29 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Jake22
08-13-2003 4:36 PM


quote:
...As our own understanding improves, I don't know that literalists would see taking advantage of this as being contrary to their literal view. I know that a few Christians believe the command in Genesis to be fruitful and multiply authorizes innovation and learning...
And does that apply to all "sciences"? or does it stop at Geology/Biology?
about Genesis:
quote:
Not in that it offers valuable insight into God's character, as well as providing what most Christians believe to be valuable history. Christians will also find worth in that they interpret certain verses to predict Jesus' coming. There are probably several other reasons that even those who don't think the Law is applicable will find Genesis useful.
Some of what you say pertains to faith and believing in God and Jesus as the savior, which is totally fine by me. However, in stating it is "valuable history" you go that one step further, which I personally do not think is logical.
Well thanks anyways, for taking the stance ...
regards,
Alex

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Jake22, posted 08-13-2003 4:36 PM Jake22 has not replied

  
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