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Author Topic:   What is the benefit of ID.
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 3 of 42 (502161)
03-10-2009 5:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by robert4818
12-11-2008 5:50 PM


robert4818 writes:
What does the theory of ID offer science? How can it benefit our further understanding of the world?
im not an ID proponent, although I do believe in creation as opposed to evolution and personally i cant see the benefit of evolution in science...what does it do for us really? How does evolution help us?
As far as i can tell, ID is simply the acknowledgment of purposeful design in nature. I dont understand why scientists & evolutionists are so threatened by this proposal.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by robert4818, posted 12-11-2008 5:50 PM robert4818 has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 9 of 42 (502323)
03-11-2009 4:49 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Stile
03-10-2009 11:51 AM


Re: The Benefit of ID
Stile writes:
if ID can and is shown to be correct, no one would have to spend any more resources on trying to figure out "how all this works." Scientists could then all lay down their pencils and microscopes and shovels and telescopes. Grant money could all be stopped. The final answer on exactly how everything actually works would be known and there would be no further need for continued exploration into the subject.
but why would everything have to stop?
why would acknowledgment of ID mean scientists would all have to stop working?
that makes no sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Stile, posted 03-10-2009 11:51 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Vacate, posted 03-11-2009 5:22 AM Peg has replied
 Message 14 by Stile, posted 03-11-2009 7:44 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 11 of 42 (502327)
03-11-2009 5:48 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Vacate
03-11-2009 5:22 AM


Re: The Benefit of ID
but saying 'God did it' doesnt say 'How God did it'
surely believing that God may have done it, doesnt mean we dont want to know 'how' he did it
why is it assumed that people would stop wanting to know how?

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 Message 10 by Vacate, posted 03-11-2009 5:22 AM Vacate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Huntard, posted 03-11-2009 5:59 AM Peg has replied
 Message 13 by Vacate, posted 03-11-2009 6:05 AM Peg has replied
 Message 15 by Percy, posted 03-11-2009 9:00 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 16 by Capt Stormfield, posted 03-11-2009 10:05 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 17 by hari, posted 03-11-2009 12:04 PM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 19 of 42 (502530)
03-12-2009 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by hari
03-11-2009 12:27 PM


Re: The Benefit of ID
hari writes:
We are not to introduce divine revelations into Philosophy, nor philosophical opinions into religion.
i love this point
shame nobody followed his advice on that one lol

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by hari, posted 03-11-2009 12:27 PM hari has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 20 of 42 (502531)
03-12-2009 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Huntard
03-11-2009 5:59 AM


Re: The Benefit of ID
Huntard writes:
It's not that people don't WANT to know, it's that people CAN'T know.
God can do anything, anything at all, how are we to determine that god did something, if nothing is impossible?
could you please rephrase that for little ol me
What Can we not know???

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Huntard, posted 03-11-2009 5:59 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Huntard, posted 03-12-2009 7:58 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 21 of 42 (502532)
03-12-2009 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Vacate
03-11-2009 6:05 AM


Re: The Benefit of ID
Vacate writes:
I am interested in the questions posed in the OP because frankly I don't see an answer to them. ID poses God made miracles, miracles don't tell us much of anything.
I didnt attempt to answer these questions because Im not an ID proponent, but since this thread begun i've been reading up on it.
quote:
-What lines of inquiry does ID open up?
It opens up the possibility of an Almighty Creator...something that is greatly lacking in this world. Many people have lost faith in God and this is a direct result of the Church's failure to defend itself from such teachings as Evolution. They failed miserably, not because the bible is false, but because the church's dont understand it and so have taught many erroneous teachings ie 'the earth is the center of the universe'...Galileo proved this wrong and in doing so, he unwittingly put doubt about the church & bible into peoples minds
The church's were glaringly wrong and so their authority began to be challenged and the result is that today many people have left the church and have a lack of faith in the bible and in God and most definitely in religion.
that lack of faith and belief coincides with a very definite fall in standards, morals, values and purpose in life for many. Without hope, our life is not a very happy one and society is showing evidence of this.
ID is something that can build faith in a God and give people hope again. That can only be a good thing for society as a whole.
quote:
-What other sciences can benefit from discoveries in ID? How?
Biomimetics! the aim of biomimetrics is to produce more complex materials and machines by imitating nature. The airplane uses the same mechanism as birds to to take flight for example...we've benefited by looking at the apparent design of living things and we've benefited from them.
Perhaps there are newer technologies that we have yet to discover but are being used in nature right now. looking for the intelligent design in nature may lead to many more amazing inventions.
quote:
-What potential new advances can be offered through an understanding of ID?
If we acknowledge Intelligence & Design in nature and actually look hard for it, perhaps we can learn to imitate how it manufactures its products without causing pollution, and they tend to be resilient and light, yet incredibly strong. In an age of climate change, we need now more then ever before to know how to produce products that biodegrade or products that can be reused, not only by us, but by the environment as well.
Everything in nature does this.... perhaps we can too.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

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Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 22 of 42 (502533)
03-12-2009 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Stile
03-11-2009 7:44 AM


Re: The Benefit of ID
Stile writes:
I answered that question with the part you quoted. If "how all this works" is equal to "God, as explained through ID," then there is nothing more to find. That is the "how." Everything would have to stop because there's nothing left to find. I suppose you could continue to search for an answer after you've already found it, but that seems really silly. Like continuing to look under the couch for your lost keys, even when you already know they're in your pocket. I'm just assuming that scientists are not insane.
i dont agree.
Lets say i want to know how to make a cake. I see a cake on the bench and mum says 'I made that cake'
I still want to know HOW she made it. Its not going to stop me from wanting to know how, just because i know she made it.
Its the same with nature. Just because we may know that God made these things, does not mean we are not interested in how he made them or how they operate.
Stile writes:
So, if ID can and is shown to be correct, then those scientists working on the alternate secular explanations for those same subjects can all stop.
that sounds like a fantastic idea. Perhaps they could work on more important issues like a cure for cancer, cure for aids, fixing the worlds food shortage crisis, developing clean technologies so industry can stop burning fossil fuels and the list goes on and on
lets spend more time on important issues i say
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Stile, posted 03-11-2009 7:44 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Stile, posted 03-12-2009 8:10 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 24 of 42 (502540)
03-12-2009 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Huntard
03-12-2009 7:58 AM


Re: The Benefit of ID
'we cannot know how God made everything'
You could be right.
For a person of faith, it doesnt really matter how he made things, only that he did make them. Giving credit where credit is due is the all important thing in my opinion.
however, i doubt that God would want us to stop wondering... it seems he made us with the ability to also create things and therefore my guess is that our sense of curiosity will always win over and we will always search for the answers.
I think he would want it that way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Huntard, posted 03-12-2009 7:58 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Huntard, posted 03-12-2009 8:15 AM Peg has replied
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 27 of 42 (502545)
03-12-2009 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Stile
03-12-2009 8:10 AM


Re: The Benefit of ID
The ID people are saying that their explanation is "how your mom made the cake."
So, if ID can and is shown to be true, then we'll already know "how the cake was made" and there will be nothing left to pursue.
I don't think your quarral is with me.
I think your quarral is with the ID people who claim that their idea shows "how the cake was made."
Yeah, i dont really know what their goal is to be honest. They dont seem to be trying to prove the existence of God becasue they seem to stay away from that prospect.
they must have an agenda...anyone know what that might be?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Stile, posted 03-12-2009 8:10 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Stile, posted 03-12-2009 8:31 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 30 of 42 (502548)
03-12-2009 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Huntard
03-12-2009 8:15 AM


Re: The Benefit of ID
Huntard writes:
all the evidence we have right now points to evolution being the cause of the diversity of life we see. But what if it wasn't evolution? What if it was god directly intervening and changing the species into what the environment desired?
well lets say that is how God did it (this is not what i believe) then perhaps our inquiry and years of study has given us the answers we desire.
If thats not how it happened, then perhaps we ourselves are misreading the evidence. You know there was a time when geologists were finding Ice Ages at every stage of the geological time table, but in our century, with a better understanding of things, geologists realized that there were not as many ice ages as previously thought. In fact the earlier geologists were reading the 'evidence' incorrectly.
Perhaps one day we will have more explanation of the old fossils we find and will realize that evolution was not the way life arose at all.
Huntard writes:
And then, when we are asked how life diversified, it is OUR fault we don't say "goddidit"? Why would he do it like that?
God has told us how he did it. The genesis account clearly states that he created each animal 'according to its kind'
this does not mean that every species alive today had to be created individually because, thanks to the genes, animals of a 'kind' or 'type' can diversify without intervention. We see that in the many breeds of Dogs and horses and cats for example. We can create new breeds of these animals thru selective breeding.
who's to say that this cannot happen also in nature thru environmental factors such as isolation for example. If we were to put a male and female dog on an island and leave them there to breed for a few hundred years, we'd come back and find a completely new 'type' or 'breed' of dog.
Perhaps we are reading the 'evidence' for evolution, incorrectly.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 31 of 42 (502549)
03-12-2009 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Stile
03-12-2009 8:31 AM


Re: The Benefit of ID
Stile writes:
they'll try deception in order to get into schools so they can reach a multitude of young-minds for the only purpose of "getting more people to act exactly like they do."
how do they act?
ps. i dont think we have ID people here in australia...i've never met one anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Stile, posted 03-12-2009 8:31 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 37 of 42 (502888)
03-13-2009 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Meddle
03-13-2009 4:18 AM


Re: The Benefit of ID
Malcolm writes:
to get those original created kinds of animal would they not have to be intelligently designed? And in so doing you have put an arbitrary limit on what we can learn from the study of genetics by saying species are only related within these distinct kinds, ignoring all the evidence to the contrary.
When it comes to breeding, what does the evidence show?
It shows that only animals of the same genetic code can reproduce. Dogs cannot reproduce with cats, rabbits cannot reproduce with guinea pigs
the evidence is that "species are only related within these distinct kinds" as you said above.

This message is a reply to:
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 Message 40 by hari, posted 03-14-2009 7:49 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 41 by Meddle, posted 03-14-2009 9:27 PM Peg has not replied
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