THE END OF EVOLUTION?

No its not, the first law tells us that! Yes it does, first law again. It's not a violation of the laws. It's not me that's confused, its you guys.It's only because there is information(order) in the universe that a machine (or process) can exist to start off with.

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There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything. blz paskal

Btw, Rahvin, I'm not Son Goku, just Son and a new member. I fear I'm far from being as knowledgeable as him though I'm flatered you mistook me for him (and I'm French so forgive me for any mistakes I do plz). Son happens to be my real name and i didn't think it would be confused with him.

No, Lucy. The first law tells us that the enrgy was not destroyed, which is true. The energy was converted to heat and lonst when it was used to perform work. The exhaust does not contain that energy - it was radiated away to the surrounding environment, and is now useless for performing more work. But not in the way you've been describing. Perpetual motion machines are impossible because of the 2LoT. Entropy MUST increase or remain the same. Performing work while losing no energy requires a net decrease in entropy - impossible in a clsoed system. Lucy, actual physicists are telling you that you are mistaken. Perhaps you might consider that physicists might know more about physics than you do?

The the first law of thermodynamics is also known as the law of conservation of energy. It states that energy can be transformed from one form to another, but it can't be created or destroyed.When you burn gasoline in your car, some of the energy goes into the motion of the car. Some of it is dissipated as heat. Some of it is dissipated as noise. Some of it is dissipated as rattles and squeaks. And some of it goes out the exhaust. The sum of all this energy must equal the energy of the original gasoline, and it does, just as the first law of thermodynamics requires. But the exhaust is only one small component of all that energy, and is much less than the energy of the original gasoline.So since the capacity of the exhaust gases to do work is much less than the original gasoline, the entropy of the gasoline has to have been much less. The energy content of the exhaust gases *must* be less than the original fuel, otherwise we'd just recycle the exhaust gases back into the engine and never need to stop at a gas station again. Wrong again, and for the same reason. That energy can't flow around in an infinite circle is what 2LoT is all about. It's why there's no such thing as perpetual motion machines. Are you getting these ideas from somewhere in particular? If so, could you provide a link? I can't tell if this is nonsense or a garbled explanation from somewhere else.--Percy

We were talking about USEABLE energy(meaning FREE energy), meaning energy that can be converted to WORK. Look at Perpetual motion - Wikipedia in the paragraph perpetual "motion machine of the second kind", it will explain where you are confused.Your example(with the fuel) doesn't violate the 1st law but the 2LOT, the one we were talking about.

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Why is it that a person like me with so little applied understanding of the sciences can argue against the belief of so many scientists?

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Because you have so little understanding of the sciences. You don't know that what you are saying is hopelessly wrong.

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All the laws of thermodynamics are easily understood, that's because they make sense and can be seen to work.

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But you DON'T understand the 2LoT.

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One study says that the human genome has become homogeneous.

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Presumably you mean the short segment of a magazine article you referred to in the OP - which was NOT a study, just some theoretical musings. Which DOESN'T state that the genome has become homogenous. [quote] The second study or assertation by the grand pubahs is that evolution is 100 times faster than in the past.You don't know what the "second" study (the ONLY study) says because you haven't read it. Only a rather confused press report. So far as I can tell it actually says that human evolution has been unusually rapid over the last 10,000 years.

Banging head into wall Not trying to be condescending but Lucy, you really do need to take a college (or even high school) level physics class.The 2nd LoT (as well as the 1 LoT) only applies to closed systems. If a system is open to being fed "usable" energy from an outside source than these laws are essentially negated (entropy can actually reverse and decrease in this open system i.e. biological evolution, development and growth of living organisms, formation of stars/galaxies, etc) for this open system. In otherwords the LoT apply strictly to a closed system i.e. the universe (though there is some speculation that even our universe is not a completely closed system). Entropy in an open system is more of a comparative function used to determine the amount of usable energy in that system (area of spacetime) at a given moment in time compared to the areas around it.In an open system, entropy may increase or decrease but in a closed system entropy never decreases. The real question is, what can be considered truley a closed system. Now you are just being deliberately ignorant which is worse than just being misinformed. If 99.9% of scientist told you were wrong, would you still be obnoxiously stupid and disagree with them? #1 You need to define the terms "information" and "process".
#2 You need to provide clear cut evidence to back up this claim.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

It was converted to heat but not lost. It done work on its surroundings.
Carbon fuels it not a good way of trying to explain TD. Would you consider a human cell a perpetual motion machine?I believe no reasonable thinking human being would reject the laws of TD. However, our current theories don't relate what we observe in nature. Nature requires another force, one of Information.

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There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything. blz paskal

Let me try another approach.Imagine a strip of wood with positions for three blocks to attach themselves. We are interested in spelling the word CAT using blocks containing all the letters of the alphabet. There are selective glues at the three sites that stick to the desired letters but to none else. We shake everything together and look, and one of the letters attached in the right location. We shake again and again and very quickly the word is spelled. By a random process information has been created! Entropy has been seemingly violated.Now imagine many such strips with the glue in place all shaken simultaneously. After just one round one has the word spelled right off the bat, so we discard the rest.."But selection only removes information, it can't create it!" You shout.The process of mutation involves more than randomness. It also involves chemistry. Chemical reactions are not random but are limited. They are also very specific as a simple look into biochemistry will show.The four letters of the alphabet for DNA, A,C,G, and T only have to spell 3 letter words to select among the less than 2 dozen proteins of life.

A closed system? Where?Your just taking my argument out of context. Consider the realities. According to the 2nd law the universe should be soup.But it's not, why? I'm not confused, you are. Theoretical musings is what the theory of evolution is all about, isn't it? I have and I'll assume you have too. Don't worry about being condescending to me, I fall into that evil trap myself.The laws of thermodynamics are universal laws. The only reason we talk about TD in closed systems is because they're mathematical principals, and in maths we need boundaries.They apply even though we don't have any closed systems. Its just that we really can't say anything about them. Which actually is the case. Have a think about your question DA. How would you answer it?

1. Can you please go to the corner store and get some milk.
2. Ok, I'm on my way.

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There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything. blz paskal

If, Lucy, this is the best level of debate you can engage in then, perhaps, you don't belong in the science threads at all.You have few days to improve on this before you are suspended from these threads altogether.Edited by AdminNosy, : No reason given.

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According to the 2nd law the universe should be soup.

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But it's not, why?

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I'll give you two possibilities:The 2LoT is wrong.Your understanding of it is wrong.I see no other possibilities. I bet I don't have to tell you which of the two I think is more likely.

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For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

Hi DA,
The source for this strawman is the videos on the first post of this site. If you have the patience to get through it all, it will cost you a 50min investment.Bot Verification

All the laws of thermodynamics apply to all systems everywhere, both open and closed. It's just easier to discuss the laws in terms of closed systems because then you don't have to keep track of inputs and outputs.--Percy

You maybe intended to post in moderator mode?--Percy