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Author Topic:   Are we prisoners of sin
Cedre
Member
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 1 of 454 (504572)
03-31-2009 6:12 AM


I am a Christian and I will boldly tell you today that I still do struggle with sin from time to time; I don't always keep all of the Ten Commandments penned in exodus 20. Is it because I am evil and want to disobey God? No it is because Christians are equally and just as human as the rest of the world's people are.

Paul wrote in Romans 7:15, "In fact, I don't understand why I act the way I do. I don't do what I know is right. I do the things I hate." This is a miserable state for the Christian, Paul said in Rom 7:13 "Was then that which is good, death to me? In no way. But the purpose was that sin might be seen to be sin by working death to me through that which is good; so that through the orders of the law sin might seem much more evil."

Not only does sin seem much more evil for the believer but the believer is furiously fighting to limit his daily dose of sin, so to be sure this is certainly a miserable state of being as Paul again said here, "Wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?"

After imparting the ten commandments God offered, "I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before thee life and death, the blessing and the curse: therefore choose life, that thou mayest live, thou and thy seed"

With this offer by God in view one can only imagine how Paul must have been feeling when he wrote the above words.

Now the gist of this thread. If man is inseparable from his sin than he must be doomed (Proverbs 13:6 Live right, and you are safe! But sin will destroy you; Romans 6:23 for the wages of sin is death.).

And if Paul one of the trend setters in Christianity complained about sin how much harder it would be for the one who is of the world to escape destruction through his own sin. And also what is the purpose of the Ten Commandments if they seem not capable of being put into practice. And furthermore what made Paul so confident and stable in his ministry when simultaneously he complained about sin, why was he so certain that he would escape destruction?

I think these are honest questions that everyone asks on the odd occasion. But before we can set out with this topic there is one question I'm sure that will almost certainly always pop up, and that is, "is there such a thing as sin?" Well I think there is by definition sin is a transgression of God's will, missing the mark set up by God. This is what sin is and considering the Ten Commandments and considering our present states I would say that sin is altogether alive and doing well.

Any honest person will admit that he/she has committed sin not once or twice or thrice but a good number of times. I remember an old hymn at this point, "My sins are higher than the mountains." Indeed we are so dispirited by the magnitude of our individual sins, but then tally up our individual sins and then put on God shoes, and experience the kind of mental depression he must be suffering each day that he allows sin to hang around. We are terribly sinful creatures our very nature is sinful, perhaps sin possesses a locus on our chromosomes. Whether or not this is the case no one can deny the existence of sin.

Edited by Cedre, : clarity on title


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Message 2 of 454 (504579)
03-31-2009 8:47 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
  
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5377
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 3 of 454 (504581)
03-31-2009 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cedre
03-31-2009 6:12 AM


Why the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20? Exodus 34 is where "he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments." With no seething kids and the like.....

Whether or not this is the case no one can deny the existence of sin.

I can, and I just did. I say there is no such thing as a god, so it is impossible to transgress against the will of one of them. There are plenty of actions that are against society and therefore fairly universally frowned upon, but "sin" is a fictional religious concept. That Calvinist BS about humans being "terribly sinful creatures" is nothing but counterproductive to thr rational person who is trying to live a decent life.


"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD
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Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2380
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 4 of 454 (504582)
03-31-2009 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Coragyps
03-31-2009 9:38 AM


Agreed Coragyps. Indeed, Cedre seems to have all the information he needs to realise this. If he defines sin as

quote:
a transgression of God's will, missing the mark set up by God

then it should be obvious that someone who doesn't believe in gods will not believe in sin.

quote:
That Calvinist BS about humans being "terribly sinful creatures" is nothing but counterproductive to thr rational person who is trying to live a decent life.

This is especially counter-productive when some of the things that the Bible decries as sinful are almost inevitable (covetousness) or even positive when not practised to excess (pride).

Mutate and Survive


"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade
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Cedre
Member
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 5 of 454 (504585)
03-31-2009 10:28 AM


Thankyou Thnakyou I'm loving it. This is precisely the nature of responses that I was anticipating.

I can, and I just did. I say there is no such thing as a god,

Well not beleiving in God is irrelevant to this thread I'm here to discuss sin and not God's existence. Even if you consider sin as a fictional religious concept that is entirely up to you. Surely we are the sole answerers of our lives, but you will not deny that deep down you do believe that sin exists. You will deny again, but that doesn't bother me. At this point knowing that right and wrong exists is a universal feeling, the bible simply sheds light on what is right and what is wrong. We shall continue tomorow.


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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5377
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 6 of 454 (504588)
03-31-2009 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Cedre
03-31-2009 10:28 AM


Right and wrong most certainly exist - we humans are social creatures living next to each other, and we all have various codes of right and wrong. "Sin" is what I reject as a meaningless concept. If this thread is about "sin" it must also be about gods, because the very concept of sin depends on some supernatural entity to {offend/be separated from/disappoint}. I can do something that causes another person pain, and feel bad and experience regret that I did it, and I can try to do better the next time, but all of that can happen without any involvment of imaginary overseers!

but you will not deny that deep down you do believe that sin exists

I sure will! Please don't try to tell me what I think, Cedre. You don't know me that well.

Edited by Coragyps, : fix tag


"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 7 of 454 (504590)
03-31-2009 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cedre
03-31-2009 6:12 AM


Prisioner of Sin
Hi Cedre,

Cedre writes:

I am a Christian and I will boldly tell you today that I still do struggle with sin from time to time;

I do not claim to be a Christian according to my definition and the Bibical definition of Christian is.

I am working on being Christlike every moment of every day.

The disciples were first called Christians at Antioch. Acts 11:26

The Greek word transliterated Christianos translated Christian has the definition of, "a follower of Christ".

That means someone who is living a life like Christ did.

Cedre writes:

Is it because I am evil and want to disobey God?

It is because you inherited a body that is separated from God and the nature of that body is to sin.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

That does not leave anybody out.

Cedre writes:

Now the gist of this thread. If man is inseparable from his sin than he must be doomed (Proverbs 13:6 Live right, and you are safe! But sin will destroy you; Romans 6:23 for the wages of sin is death.).

The first man in the Garden of Eden was given a rule to live and die by.

He was told the day you eat the fruit you will die.

He disobeyed God and death came to all mankind.

You can't get out of this world alive. You must die. After that the judgment.

Cedre writes:

And also what is the purpose of the Ten Commandments if they seem not capable of being put into practice.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

The law was to show us we could not satisfy a just God and that faith in God is required.

God offers man a free full pardon for all his sins and shortcommings. But man MUST believe that God IS and can and will do what He says He will do.

John 3:18 He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Man is unsaved because he will not accept God's offer of a pardon.

Not because he has not kept the 10 commandments, been baptized, feed the poor, or anyother good deed you can name.

Only because he has not believed.

A couple of my favorite verses are:

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

We do not have an option.

Jesus said His sheep follow Him and He gives them eternal life.

Jesus says His sheep will never perish.

Jesus says no certain being (Satan) can pluck them out of my hand.

A man must accept God's offer of a free full pardon or spend eternity separated from Him.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2380
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 8 of 454 (504595)
03-31-2009 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Cedre
03-31-2009 10:28 AM


quote:
Well not beleiving in God is irrelevant to this thread I'm here to discuss sin and not God's existence.

No-one is trying to discuss the existence of gods. Coragyps and I are merely pointing out that someone who does not believe in gods will not believe in sin. Surely this is obvious?

quote:
you will not deny that deep down you do believe that sin exists

Oh. Apparently it's not obvious. Let me spell it out; I don't believe in sin.

quote:
You will deny again, but that doesn't bother me.

Soooo... You are the expert on what I think and if I say that I don't think what you think I think, I'm wrong, because you know best what I think and don't think. I have no idea what I think. I only think I do.

Does that not strike you as a trifle arrogant? Let's see how you like it.

You think that 2+2=5, that Hitler was a swell guy and slavery is a virtue. You are also a devout Muslim. If you claim not to believe any of this, you are wrong. I know that you believe it, because I said that you did. QED

Annoying isn't it? I'll cut you a deal; if you don't tell me what I think, I'll extend the same courtesy to you. Okay?

quote:
At this point knowing that right and wrong exists is a universal feeling, the bible simply sheds light on what is right and what is wrong.

I agree that a sense of right and wrong are pretty much universal, but the actual details of what is considered right and what is considered wrong differ from culture to culture and from person to person. The Bible does indeed attempt to shed light on what is right and wrong, but there will always be those who disagree with some of its teachings on such matters. Those of us who do not regard the Bible as an authority are free to make our own judgements about its morality or lack thereof.

Mutate and Survive


"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade
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Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 454 (504596)
03-31-2009 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by ICANT
03-31-2009 10:47 AM


Re: Prisioner of Sin
It is because you inherited a body that is separated from God and the nature of that body is to sin.

Here is a question completely irrelevant in the real world, but fitting in the setting of this thread: Let's assume that inhabiting a human body connects you to original sin. Let us also assume that good deeds will not atone for your sins, and anyone with a sin, however slight, cannot be allowed into heaven. It follows then that Jesus was sinful and should not have been allowed into heaven unless under the "new deal". This is due to his dual origin, conceived by God and a woman; unless of course you assume women to be sinless. Where am I going with this?

I am working on being Christlike every moment of every day.

As an extension of above we can conclude that Christ was sinful and thus not a truly worthy scapegoat for all the rest of the sins of man. Living a life like Christ will not save you or even help you; good deeds cannot wipe away your sin, and there is no way that any human could ever be sinless. The fictional entity that you have chosen as your savior has you in a catch 22, you are screwed from the start. Attempting to emulate Jesus is pointless.
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1538 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 10 of 454 (504599)
03-31-2009 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cedre
03-31-2009 6:12 AM


Sin: An Act, Not a Thing
quote:
But before we can set out with this topic there is one question I'm sure that will almost certainly always pop up, and that is, "is there such a thing as sin?"
Yes wrong behavior does exist within a society or group. Some religions use the term "sin" to describe an act that violates a moral rule or code of conduct decreed by a divine entity. Sin is not something that exists in its own right or initiates action. Violating a moral rule or code is not necessarily evil. IMO evil is very extreme badness.

The average person has the capacity to do right or wrong. People make choices on a daily basis whether to do right or wrong.

quote:
Not only does sin seem much more evil for the believer but the believer is furiously fighting to limit his daily dose of sin, so to be sure this is certainly a miserable state of being as Paul again said here, "Wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?"
People don't get a "dose" of sin and doing wrong isn't any worse for a believer than for anyone else. Actually, it should be easier. The believer is supposedly given moral rules and codes of behavior. Cut and dried. The believer is (or should be) constantly taught that they should repent and be forgiven if they transgress. IMO, some Christians have difficulty because they don't really know God's moral rules or codes of behavior for them and aren't taught how to repent.

Repenting means one actually changes their way of thinking. If a person still wants to do what is wrong, but only refrains from doing wrong due to a law or code; that person hasn't changed their thinking.

quote:
Now the gist of this thread. If man is inseparable from his sin than he must be doomed (Proverbs 13:6 Live right, and you are safe! But sin will destroy you; Romans 6:23 for the wages of sin is death.).
Doomed how? Wrong behavior does make life more difficult.

quote:
Well I think there is by definition sin is a transgression of God's will, missing the mark set up by God. This is what sin is and considering the Ten Commandments and considering our present states I would say that sin is altogether alive and doing well.
The published Ten Commandments and the rest of the laws in the Bible are from an ancient civilization. Laws and codes of behavior adjust with each civilization. Morals and ethics are sometimes at odds in the workplace.
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Chiroptera
Member (Idle past 16 days)
Posts: 6531
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003


Message 11 of 454 (504600)
03-31-2009 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cedre
03-31-2009 6:12 AM


Well, I don't believe in a god, nor do I believe that "sin" is a good way to label and categorize behavior. But, be it as it may...

Well I think there is by definition sin is a transgression of God's will, missing the mark set up by God.

In that case, one can ask, who cares? What does it matter what arbitrary mark this god person sets?

Well, I suppose that one can be concerned that if one defies this god's wishes, then one might be punished by this god. But if that is the concern, then the question takes on a flavor different than what I believe you are trying to express.

Then the phrase

...I still do struggle with sin from time to time...

becomes "I still struggle with obeying the speed limit," or "I still stuggle with not cheating on my income taxes." Even more to the point, in a dictatorship one might say "I still struggle from time to time with opinions contrary to wishes of the state." But is the problem here the opinions, or the unreasonable demands of the state?

Is this all that "sin" is? Just going contrary to the wishes of this god thing? And is the reason this "sin" is bad is because this omnipotent and omniscient god will punish me for "sinning?"

Maybe that's all it is; maybe I should be saying, "Holy shit! I have to struggle with thinking about naked women, because this god person is going to punish me for it!" But if that's all it is, then the idea of "sin" seems to take on a different flavor than what most people think when they discuss morality and ethics.


To count as an atheist, one needn't claim to have proof that there are no gods. One only needs to believe that the evidence on the god question is in a similar state to the evidence on the werewolf question. -- John McCarthy
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Capt Stormfield
Member
Posts: 402
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


Message 12 of 454 (504601)
03-31-2009 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cedre
03-31-2009 6:12 AM


I don't always keep all of the Ten Commandments penned in exodus 20.

Exodus is small time. I mean, did you really want to kill somebody? How are you doing with following Leviticus?

Capt.


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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 13 of 454 (504602)
03-31-2009 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Phage0070
03-31-2009 11:22 AM


Re: Prisioner of Sin
Hi Phaqe,

Phage0070 writes:

This is due to his dual origin, conceived by God and a woman; unless of course you assume women to be sinless. Where am I going with this?

I have no Idea where you are headed.

But in the Garden of Eden a man was given a direct order by God.

That man chose on purpose to disobey God because the woman had eaten the fruit and was going to die. So he chose to eat and die with her.

No where does the Bible say by the woman sin entered into the world but it does say by one man sin entered into the world.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Man could not be involved in the production of the flesh body Jesus had.

Jesus had to have a body like the first man that disobeyed God and chose to eat the fruit.

For that reason God chose Mary to provide the flesh body for Jesus to inhabit during His earthly journey.

Was Mary sinless? By no streach of the imagination.

Phage0070 writes:

As an extension of above we can conclude that Christ was sinful and thus not a truly worthy scapegoat for all the rest of the sins of man.

You can conclude anything you desire.

You can conclude sin does not exist.

What you choose to believe or not to believe has no bearing on what is true or false.

There will be a point in your existence you will know the truth.

Is there some things that are right and others wrong?

Or does might make right?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Rahvin
Member (Idle past 1267 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 14 of 454 (504603)
03-31-2009 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Cedre
03-31-2009 10:28 AM


Surely we are the sole answerers of our lives, but you will not deny that deep down you do believe that sin exists. You will deny again, but that doesn't bother me.

There seems to be a contradiction in your thought process. "You cannot deny, but you will deny again?"

The concept of "sin" as you propose it (where "sin" is defined exclusively as "disobedience to God's will") is the most primitive form of ethics imaginable. Literally, it means "this is good and that is bad because I say so, and I know better." There's no ethical reasoning used at all beyond blanket appeal to an authority figure. There is no way to examine the morality of a given act beyond checking to see if the act is in the "bad list."

But as others have mentioned, if you don't accept that the authority figure you're appealing to ("god") actually exists, then by definition there can be no "sin." How can one obey or disobey an imaginary entity?

Christians also like to compare their concept of "sin" (or rather the list of items in the "bad" list, not the actual ethical system itself) with the moral standards of other societies in the search for similarities to prove that "sin" is actually an independant and universal concept. Much like the way you have insisted that we all know "deep down" that "sin" exists. Unfortunately for you, the ethical systems of different cultures do tend to be very different. Remember, to the Aztecs, daily human sacrifice was right and good; various tribes in South America even now practice cannibalism and regard the practice as right and good. In some cultures the concept of "property" is communal and so the "sin" of theft is impossible. The only objective fact about ethics and morality is that these concepts themselves are inherently subjective, and therefore not universal at all.

In other words, not everyone agrees with the items on your "bad list," even "deep down." This means that "sin" cannot be any sort of universal moral guideline. Even without talking about the existence or nonexistence of your favorite deity, "sin" cannot possibly exist in the way you represent it to.


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Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 454 (504604)
03-31-2009 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by ICANT
03-31-2009 12:33 PM


Re: Prisioner of Sin
ICANT writes:

But in the Garden of Eden a man was given a direct order by God.

That man chose on purpose to disobey God because the woman had eaten the fruit and was going to die. So he chose to eat and die with her.

quote:
Genesis 3:
Verse 6: And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
...
Verse 13: And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Well my version of the Bible suggests that Adam was somewhat fooled by Eve, not the conscious choice for death that you suggest. In fact you imply that the woman was never told not to eat the fruit, which evidently she was and decided to disobey intentionally.
quote:
Genesis 3:
2: And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Are you suggesting that Adam was held responsible by God but that Eve was not? Are women capable of getting into heaven by living a virtuous life? Are women capable of sinning, or are your implying that women are incapable of being held accountable for their decisions?

ICANT writes:

Man could not be involved in the production of the flesh body Jesus had.


I think you are missing the point; we are all "man", even the women. That is why we are called "mankind".

ICANT writes:

Was Mary sinless? By no streach of the imagination.


I like that you acknowledge that it is imagination, but was she sinful by original sin or by sinful actions?

ICANT writes:

Is there some things that are right and others wrong?


As a fundamental aspect of reality? No. Right and wrong are completely dependent on the presence of intelligent life, namely humans, and by extension it is an artificial construct of that intelligent life. This also means that ethics are somewhat mutable as the intelligent life changes, but for a specific individual I think they are ingrained enough to be largely immutable.

Hi Phaqe,

It is Phage, from the Greek "to eat" or "to consume".
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