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Author Topic:   Think bigger think better.
paullesq 
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Posts: 43
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 1 of 78 (505097)
04-07-2009 12:11 PM


American philosopher Wilfrid Sellars once said of philosophy that its aim is to 'understand how things in the broadest possible sense of the term hang together in the broadest possible sense of the term.'
The great philosophers [articus publishing].
........................
A firm foundation for the broadest of theories would be this, my statement:
*The big bang a single beginning denotes a single process.
Immediately one is forced to look at the process of biological evolution with new eyes to see how the process fits in with the single process idea. My argument would be that what we have in the mainstream understanding of what counts as the only real type of 'evolution' [victorian slang term for biological evolution], counts as only a portion, a chapter of a much larger process.
........................
Where does the potential for evolution itself come from?
If one was to dispense with the use of one word victorian slang term, wipes nose on sleeve 'evolution', then the quetion becomes more precise.
Where does the potential for biological evolution come from?
As a broad question asking how anything that has complexity came into existence, the answer by experience is that it came from a most basic representation of itself.
If my 'single beginning single process' statement holds true then you cannot have 'natural selection' without accepting the evolution of the inorganic, the process of primordial evolution by means of primal selection.
..................
Shall we say that the big bang happened the Earth formed and then the process of modification descent by means of natural selection just magically kicked in?
That is the science of gaps, today's mainstream thinking would have it that way.
My way of thinking makes more sense, im a man who believes that evolution began with the big bang.
The big bang started a single process and that single process has moved through three punctuated chapters, from rock to flesh and blood and in to the minds of men. Dissection of the single path of evolution has been performed logically by use of *statements that i hold to be true. I use statements to hone my thinking in order to gain a train of thought, simply i lay down tracks.
................................
*It i the total difference in a phenomenon that makes it stand out.
In the case of evolution it is the type of material and the domain in which it operates.
Inorganic, organic, mind.
................................
Because the idea is new then there is no getting away from it, new labels and terms are needed to explain the theory. Innovation. Some thinkers [?] may have a problem with innovation.
The process of Primordial evolution by means of primal selection... Inorganic.
The process of Biological evolution by means of natural selection.... Organic.
The process of human mental evolution by means of conscious selection...Mind.
...............................
*Given breadth, when broadened out, evolution gains direction.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMwn_hnoS5Y
The process of primordial evolution, the evolution of the inorganic looks nothing like the process of biological evolution at first glance, if it did then there would be no need to separate the two. So unlike are the two types of evolution some may contend that the two are not related at all, if indeed that is the case then science is left with the problem of how you get something from nothing, or where did the mechanism of modification descent by means of natural election come from. Im attempting to answer that question by most simple logic, that is that modification descent and selection began with the big bang.
What is primal selection?
The answer is so simple it may rest as unsatisfactory to some, not sexy enough.
Difficult to acknowledge that inorganic force acting on inorganic material yields a selected result, but then that is how you get something from nothing.
The process of primordial evolution and biological evolution do share some similarities, that is, sometimes there is build and sometimes not.
A scenario of build that clearly shows modification descent by means of primal selection is the evolution of our solar system. Our solar system is a pocket of balance, its balance was not gained at its very first attempt, during the accretion process the plantesimals collided and jostled for position. Inorganic material was modified in spates of such interaction. Primordial evolution lacks the facility to store and pass on information in the exact same way that dna in biological evolution does. What is passed on within the sphere of inorganic evolution is the modified inorganic material itself.
.................................
In primordial evolution, as one might imagine the meaning of 'modification descent and selection' are regressed to there most basic meaning.
...............................
Proof of the exsistence of Primal selection by Triangulation.
Natural selection.
Consciouse selection.
paul.
Just when you think you know something.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EdWgsTUhmI
...................
*When broadened out evolution gains direction.
What counts for good and bad must come out to play.
...................
Mine is not to demolish your undertanding of evolution, [wipes nose on sleeve] mine is to build upoin it.
...................
paul.
paul.
Edited by paullesq, : No reason given.
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Edited by paullesq, : A work in progress
Edited by paullesq, : No reason given.

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paullesq 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5440 days)
Posts: 43
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 3 of 78 (505158)
04-08-2009 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Admin
04-08-2009 8:21 AM


Exscuse my dyslexia, my scrawl.
I hope i am making sense.
paul.

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paullesq 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5440 days)
Posts: 43
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 7 of 78 (505199)
04-08-2009 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Perdition
04-08-2009 12:13 PM


Change, everything changes.
How could anyone disagree.
A cosy informal chat over the garden fence, we would be talking about 'change.'
Because i recognise that the mechanism of modification descent and selection is constantly at work, im saying that everything evolves...
To assert that everything changes is ok by me, you are not wrong, only in the same sense that a physicist can be accused of dabbling in a bit of maths that is, you would be absolutely right.
paul.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNZ0ClNhOyg

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paullesq 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5440 days)
Posts: 43
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 9 of 78 (505228)
04-09-2009 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by onifre
04-08-2009 4:31 PM


In a nut shell sir.
*The big bang a single beginning denotes a single process.
The single process has moved through three punctuated phases. Although the three phases can be viewed and studied independently of each other they do blend together.
Abiogenisis is the blending/transitional period where one type of evolution becomes another.
Indeed it is my understanding that it is not the process of modification decent by means of selection that changes but rather the circumstances that the process finds itself in.
....................................................
Necessity is the mother of invention. [Plato]
Context = coherence.
The process of primordial evolution by means of primal selection. Red
The process of biological evolution by means of natural selection.Blue
The process of human mental evolution by intelligent selection. Yellow
The colours can be seen blending together so as to paint a picture, or they can be viewed seperatly naked on the pallete.
paul.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkvLq0TYiwI
Edited by paullesq, : No reason given.

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paullesq 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5440 days)
Posts: 43
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 11 of 78 (505243)
04-09-2009 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by paullesq
04-09-2009 7:19 AM


Hello sir,
Where specifically does your off topic warning apply to my post.
Oni raised the question of abiogenisis, he suggested that what i think of as the 'Process of primordial evolution' was in fact abiogenesis. He even went so far as to attempt to stretch biogenesis back to the big bang rather than accept new terminology/a new process in principle. New labels and terms are difficult to accept and take on board, so much so that one might attempt to stretch a process further than it has legs.
My reply to onifre went some way into explaining where exactly i see abiogenesis as fitting in with the 'single beginning single process'
theory.
...........................................
Was it my use of the 3 primary colours as an additional tool for explaining the three chapters of evolution that caused me to get a warning.
..........................................
Or is it because i occasionally post music and film clips.
Music marks time, my mood and expression.
...........
paul.

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paullesq 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5440 days)
Posts: 43
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 14 of 78 (505320)
04-10-2009 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Admin
04-09-2009 11:05 AM


Hello sir,
Re warning:
It is a most difficult task to get people to think and consider anything new, by showing the film clip from dead poets society hopefully some were inspired to think a little deeper instead of dismissing my ideas off hand. So i make no apologies for that clip.
However, i understand your position with regard to this matter and i shall not post any bare links without elaborating on why i have posted them.
paul.
The big bang and its timeline as the plug and the cable, the Earth a circuit board and you the transistor.
What noise shall you make, what song shall you sing.
Edited by paullesq, : No reason given.

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paullesq 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5440 days)
Posts: 43
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 16 of 78 (505392)
04-11-2009 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Stagamancer
04-09-2009 12:06 AM


Stagamancer
But evolution and natural selection are not the same thing. So when an astronomer is talking about the evolution of a star and a biologist is talking about the evolution of a species, they are both talking about change, but that mechanism is very, very different. This is why Darwin is not credited with coming up with the idea that animals may evolve; his own grandfather wrote about that.
It's also true that there is a kind of selection (if you can call it that, I'm stretching the definition for argument's sake) on biotic matter: Those things that are the most structurally sound will last the longest. But still, this is not selection like natural selection, because natural selection (as defined by Darwin) cannot act on something that does not replicate itself. So again, a star may evolve (change), and certain stars may last longer than others of have a different final state (black hole vs. white dwarf), but this start cannot directly create another star, and so once it burns out that's it, it's specific structure and composition is no more.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We have many intuitions in our life and the point is that many of these intuitions are wrong. The question is, are we going to test those intuitions?
.......................................................................
You miss me by a mile. You have told yourself what a something is and become a specialist.
The subject is evolution. Modification descent by means of selection.
You only have 'natural selection' and count Darwanian/biological evolution as the only real type of evolution.
We pass on more than our genes, we pass on our knowledge our ideas and theories.
Science itself, our artefacts evolve by modification descent and human/intelligent selection.
Natural selection, intelligent selection.Two types of selection, two types of very real evolution.
Both related.
From the primordial soup, the common ancestor to the branching out of the many species.
To the first piston engine, the first petrol car and the branching out of the many different cars we see on our roads today.
Although the means of selection in both cases are very different, that is that they operate in very different spheres on different material, the branching structure of evolution is evident in both examples.
.................................................................
By triangulation.
Natural selection. Intelligent selection. Primal selection.
paul.
Edited by paullesq, : My home pc has given up the ghost. I struggle on a crap old lap top.
Excuse the way i quote.
Edited by paullesq, : No reason given.

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paullesq 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5440 days)
Posts: 43
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 18 of 78 (505536)
04-13-2009 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Admin
04-10-2009 9:25 AM


Admin wrote:
I see it differently, that you're finding it difficult getting people to accept inarticulate propositions, but more importantly, here at EvC Forum we try to keep discussion focused strictly on the topic. Complaints about the difficulties involved in persuading people are not part of the topic of the discussion threads, by which I mean the threads in the science category and in the religion category.
.........................................
Where do i complain?
Inarticulate propositions sir, you skim read me, If you are interested and unsure of what i propose then please do ask.
It seems to me that you have focussed on the call to think deeper and not the theory.
The theory stands to reason by its own merit.
What separates this universe from a quantum universe?
Selection,selection selection. The three [4] types that i outline.
Primal selection, natural selection, human/intelligent selection.
.........................................
paul.
Edited by paullesq, : No reason given.

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paullesq 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5440 days)
Posts: 43
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 21 of 78 (505604)
04-13-2009 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by onifre
04-09-2009 9:45 PM


All this is cool.
Don't mean to be rude, Paul, but what's your point?
Are you trying to talk about the emergence of consciousness, or something like that?
Sorry, but I'm not following.......
- Oni
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I make several points oni, the rise to consciousness is one.
I suppose the main point i make i that *when evolution is broadened out it gains direction.
With a fertile mind i have regressed evolution back to the big bang and projected the process forward into the minds of men, intelligent evolution... Back and forth to gain an exploded view. [sexy]
Direction, movement is all important, the movement for mankind at least is one from basic to complex.
The 'single beginning single process' idea was conceived when i was an atheist, my overview of the single process of evolution changed that, now i am agnostic.
.............................
paul.

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paullesq 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5440 days)
Posts: 43
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 22 of 78 (505645)
04-14-2009 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by onifre
04-09-2009 9:45 PM


All this is cool.
Don't mean to be rude, Paul, but whats your point?
Are you trying to talk about the emergence of consciousness, or something like that?
Sorry, but I'm not following.......
- Oni
.................s..........................
Hello Oni,
Im making several points,the 'single begining single process' theory has a number of implacations, the rise to consciousness is one as you rightly point out. The main point i make is that *when broadened out
evolution gains direction. [for us, our kind it does].
paul.

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paullesq 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5440 days)
Posts: 43
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 23 of 78 (505650)
04-14-2009 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Stagamancer
04-13-2009 1:25 PM


I don't agree that the evolution of the universe and the evolution of life are caused by the same process because the inorganic entities such as stars are not replicating themselves. They are dying and new ones are forming, but they are not related to each other.
.......................................................................Hello Stagamancer
You are absolutely correct, but then im not stating that the universe and the evolution of life evolve by the same process that is why the name of the two processes are different. Try to think in terms of chapters, the process of primordial evolution is one chapter, the process of biological evolution is another. Both chapters share the same mechanical mode of operation, modification descent by means of selection.
If you was looking for the precursor process to the biological one, what would you expect it to look like.
What has experience taught you?
The process of Primordial evolution lacks the ability to reproduce and pass on dna, that is what marks it out to be more basic than complex biological evolution. The evolution of intelligence is more complex than both primordial evolution and biological evolution because it has the potential to understand both processes.
paul.

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paullesq 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5440 days)
Posts: 43
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 24 of 78 (505651)
04-14-2009 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by paullesq
04-09-2009 7:19 AM


Primal selection. Red.
Natural selection.Blue.
Intelligent selection. Yellow.
.................................
Human selection.Black + white = Grey.
.................................
The avarage colour of the universe.[google it].
.................................
The colours can be seen blending together so as to paint a picture, or they can be viewed seperatly naked on the pallete.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
The colours have been appropriated for good reason.
Do you know why?
paul.

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paullesq 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5440 days)
Posts: 43
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 27 of 78 (505827)
04-18-2009 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Larni
04-16-2009 7:21 AM


paulleq writes.
The main point i make is that *when broadened out
evolution gains direction.
........................................
Larni writes.
I think you need to provided evidence that this is true. This will stop people concluding that you are simply having a mental wank.
By the way, using the db codes is easy.
............................................
Evidence, well that is easy. If evolution did t have direction when broadened out,cavemen would have understood it. Eh....?
You raise the question of mental masturbation...interesting. Why... I look for simulates within the three spheres of evolution, Explosive types of conception.
Inorganic. The big bang.
Organic. The orgasm.
Intelligence. The eureka moment.
paul.
Edited by paullesq, : No reason given.
Edited by paullesq, : No reason given.

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paullesq 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5440 days)
Posts: 43
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 31 of 78 (505912)
04-19-2009 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Larni
04-18-2009 5:30 AM


paullesq wrote:
Evidence, well that is easy. If evolution did t have direction when broadened out, then cavemen would have understood it. Eh....?
..................
Larni wrote;
You think that is evidence?
You hold the position of a moron.
Think harder about what evidence is for Christ sake.
........................................
Yeah, sure thing that is evidence. Bear in mind i am a man who believes that 'evolution' began with the big bang. Primal selection, natural selection, intelligent selection has direction, hypothesis theory law, again mirrors direction. Infant adolescent adult.
Direction. If you are looking at biological evolution alone, if you stand amoungst chaos that is all you are going to see.
EVIDENCE. Shall i make a make a mark in the sand, scrach my reply on parchement, jot it down with pen or tap it out on key pad.Professor Stephen Hawking has worked out that at the instant of the big bang the four fundamental forces were united. If that is indeed the case it occurs to me that the less options there are for type of interaction at the earliest moment of the universe, the more primitive inorganic Primal selection would have been.
At first glance my theory may seem like an atheist dream.
The serpent swallows its own tail.
Evolution has direction.
...................................................
Leni writes
What you are doing here doing off on being obscure and mysterious.
....................................................
If you can collect together, add up and divide, categorise then you can understand me.So simple, i collect together all inorganic types of interaction, all organic types of interaction [evolution], all human mental types of interaction and divide into types.
Collecting together and dividing.
Dissection is done logically.
Further i place into categories by use of new labels.
The process of Primordial evolution.
The process of Biological evolution.
The process of Human mental evolution.
The process of biological evolution is placed into context of its own evolution by such means.
.........................................
Im guilty of over using the word 'process' that is because i view the subject of biological evolution as an item. Im asking where does the 'item' of biological evolution come from. Experience has taught me that if the question is where does a complex phenomenon come from, then the answer may be found by looking for a primitive representation of the item itself.
*The big bang a single beginning denotes a single process, that single process has moved through three punctuated phases. The three punctuated phases are themselves processes in their own right, they can also be counted as sub processes/chapters of the main single process.
If you have no preconceived prejudice to 'type' inorganic, organic, mind. Then you might be born again scientist.
Obscure and mysteries me.....nah.
smile.
.....................................
If you have three of a kind then it is i believe possible to gain insight by triangulation.
Striving.
Within the sphere of the evolution of the inorganic there is nothing that can conceivably be called striving taking place, after all it is just inorganic material falling together and interacting in outer space.
Within the sphere of intelligent evolution, science, mind, it is reasonable to conclude that we are all out striving for the answers to the most searching of questions.
From no striving at all to all out striving.
Conclusion.
A part of the laying down of our biological form is shaped by striving. No calve muscles on shin bones.
paul.
paul.
Edited by paullesq, : A work in progress
Edited by paullesq, : No reason given.
Edited by paullesq, : Wot no free expression.Shame.
Edited by paullesq, : No reason given.

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paullesq 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5440 days)
Posts: 43
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 34 of 78 (506233)
04-24-2009 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Admin
04-20-2009 7:34 AM


Re: Quotes
If i make the extra effort to use the db codes on this fidgety lap top will you allow me to express myself freely with music and film.
This thread begings with a philosopical quote, there is science by way of natural selection and the subject of evolution, i use colour as a tool, art. More than a blind link my expression sir.Signitures can come in all shapes and forms. I May use music and film to drive a point or merely to show my mood. What say you?
paul.

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