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Author Topic:   Why is the Intelligent Designer so inept?
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 181 of 352 (505652)
04-14-2009 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by JGBurgess
04-14-2009 6:54 AM


Predictions
Physical defects are not evidence for an inept Creator but are instead explained as the by-product of Sin.
Based on this hypothesis is it a reasonable prediction to suggest that those who are most sinful should produce a lineage with the most physical defects?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by JGBurgess, posted 04-14-2009 6:54 AM JGBurgess has not replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 182 of 352 (505657)
04-14-2009 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by JGBurgess
04-14-2009 6:54 AM


Hi, JG Burgess! My grandmother was a Burgess from Missouri! Welcome to EvC!
We believe that the world before the Fall had no death, disease or suffering, as God proclaimed the finished creation "very good"
Were Guinea worms, parasitoid wasps, lampreys, Plasmodium falciparum, liver flukes, ticks, and Loa loa worms created? If so, when? Or did they evolve after this Fall? If so, from what "very good" critters?

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 Message 179 by JGBurgess, posted 04-14-2009 6:54 AM JGBurgess has not replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 183 of 352 (505663)
04-15-2009 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by JGBurgess
04-14-2009 6:54 AM


Physical defects are not evidence for an inept Creator but are instead explained as the by-product of Sin.
How did our sins invert the retina in every vertebrate species? How did cephalopods avoid our sin?
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by JGBurgess, posted 04-14-2009 6:54 AM JGBurgess has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by traderdrew, posted 04-27-2009 2:06 PM Taq has replied

traderdrew
Member (Idle past 5154 days)
Posts: 379
From: Palm Beach, Florida
Joined: 04-27-2009


Message 184 of 352 (506555)
04-27-2009 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Taq
04-15-2009 12:20 AM


Sin didn't cause our retinas to become inverted. It was a trade off in order for our eyes to receive more nutrients such as oxygen.
http://www.catalase.com/retina.htm

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Taq, posted 04-15-2009 12:20 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Taq, posted 04-27-2009 4:20 PM traderdrew has not replied
 Message 186 by lyx2no, posted 04-27-2009 4:27 PM traderdrew has replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 185 of 352 (506564)
04-27-2009 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by traderdrew
04-27-2009 2:06 PM


Sin didn't cause our retinas to become inverted. It was a trade off in order for our eyes to receive more nutrients such as oxygen.
The cephalopod eye does not have an inverted retina, and cephalopods do just fine. Also, surely and all-knowing and all-powerful designer would not be subject to "trade-offs". You would think that a competent designer would be able to figure out a way to get enough oxygen to the retinal cells without having to put the wires in the light path.

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lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4716 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 186 of 352 (506567)
04-27-2009 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by traderdrew
04-27-2009 2:06 PM


Trade Off
It was a trade off in order for our eyes to receive more nutrients such as oxygen.
What are the restrictions place upon God that He has to make trade offs? Who placed these restrictions upon Him?

Genesis 2
17 But of the ponderosa pine, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou shinniest thereof thou shalt sorely learn of thy nakedness.
18 And we all live happily ever after.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by traderdrew, posted 04-27-2009 2:06 PM traderdrew has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by traderdrew, posted 04-27-2009 4:32 PM lyx2no has replied

traderdrew
Member (Idle past 5154 days)
Posts: 379
From: Palm Beach, Florida
Joined: 04-27-2009


Message 187 of 352 (506569)
04-27-2009 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by lyx2no
04-27-2009 4:27 PM


Re: Trade Off
The both of you are debating this issue from the perspective of the way you think a creator should be running things.
Why should a creator be concerned with creating a perfect world if it doesn't need to be perfect in order to fulfill certain purposes?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by lyx2no, posted 04-27-2009 4:27 PM lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Taq, posted 04-27-2009 4:35 PM traderdrew has replied
 Message 189 by lyx2no, posted 04-27-2009 4:46 PM traderdrew has not replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 188 of 352 (506571)
04-27-2009 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by traderdrew
04-27-2009 4:32 PM


Re: Trade Off
The both of you are debating this issue from the perspective of the way you think a creator should be running things.
I am only debating this from the perspective of an all-powerful and all-knowing deity. Since, by definition, such a deity could produce an eye without the flaws found in the vertebrate eye it stands to reason that either the creator put flaws in the eye on purpose or the creator is not all-knowing and all-powerful.
Why should a creator be concerned with creating a perfect world if it doesn't need to be perfect in order to fulfill certain purposes?
So the all-knowing and all-powerful deity that exists outside of time and space didn't have enough time to do it right, just good enough? You don't see the logical problems here?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by traderdrew, posted 04-27-2009 4:32 PM traderdrew has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by traderdrew, posted 04-27-2009 4:48 PM Taq has replied

lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4716 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 189 of 352 (506573)
04-27-2009 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by traderdrew
04-27-2009 4:32 PM


Re: Trade Off
Actually, you're the one arguing from a unfounded perspective; that it is the way it is because someone wanted it that way. I'm arguing from the persective of why do it the dumb way when the smart way won't cost a penny more. Don't have a trade off with stupid.

Genesis 2
17 But of the ponderosa pine, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou shinniest thereof thou shalt sorely learn of thy nakedness.
18 And we all live happily ever after.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by traderdrew, posted 04-27-2009 4:32 PM traderdrew has not replied

traderdrew
Member (Idle past 5154 days)
Posts: 379
From: Palm Beach, Florida
Joined: 04-27-2009


Message 190 of 352 (506576)
04-27-2009 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Taq
04-27-2009 4:35 PM


Re: Trade Off
Maybe the reason why the creator doesn't reside in the physical world is because it has limitations. I don't know. I think design doesn't need to be perfect. It just needs to serve certain purposes. Look at this another way. Does your computer need more memory? Is the screen to small? I am not here in an attempt to convince you otherwise. I am here to sharpen my skills as a proponent of I.D.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Taq, posted 04-27-2009 4:35 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Theodoric, posted 04-27-2009 4:50 PM traderdrew has replied
 Message 192 by Straggler, posted 04-27-2009 4:57 PM traderdrew has not replied
 Message 193 by Taq, posted 04-27-2009 5:08 PM traderdrew has not replied
 Message 194 by lyx2no, posted 04-27-2009 5:11 PM traderdrew has not replied
 Message 195 by Coyote, posted 04-27-2009 5:21 PM traderdrew has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 191 of 352 (506577)
04-27-2009 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by traderdrew
04-27-2009 4:48 PM


Re: Trade Off
Does your computer need more memory? Is the screen to small?
Terrible analogy, my computer was not designed by an all knowing entity.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by traderdrew, posted 04-27-2009 4:48 PM traderdrew has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by onifre, posted 04-27-2009 7:04 PM Theodoric has replied
 Message 198 by traderdrew, posted 04-28-2009 10:33 AM Theodoric has replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 192 of 352 (506578)
04-27-2009 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by traderdrew
04-27-2009 4:48 PM


Re: Trade Off
Does your computer need more memory?
Yes.
Is the screen to small?
Yes.
I am not here in an attempt to convince you otherwise.
OK.
I am not here in an attempt to convince you otherwise. I am here to sharpen my skills as a proponent of I.D.
Then you need to find an objective method of differentiating those things which are designed from those things which are not. The simple assertion that it is "obvious" holds no water at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by traderdrew, posted 04-27-2009 4:48 PM traderdrew has not replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 193 of 352 (506580)
04-27-2009 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by traderdrew
04-27-2009 4:48 PM


Re: Trade Off
I think design doesn't need to be perfect. It just needs to serve certain purposes.
Didn't you just say the following?
"The both of you are debating this issue from the perspective of the way you think a creator should be running things."
So you accuse us of overreaching, and then just a few minutes later you do the same.
Does your computer need more memory? Is the screen to small? I am not here in an attempt to convince you otherwise.
Would a computer built by an all-powerful and all-knowing deity need more memory and a bigger screen?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by traderdrew, posted 04-27-2009 4:48 PM traderdrew has not replied

lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4716 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 194 of 352 (506581)
04-27-2009 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by traderdrew
04-27-2009 4:48 PM


Re: Trade Off
I am here to sharpen my skills as a proponent of I.D.
Ah! The perfect anti-science truth. Have a position, then an argument.

Genesis 2
17 But of the ponderosa pine, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou shinniest thereof thou shalt sorely learn of thy nakedness.
18 And we all live happily ever after.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by traderdrew, posted 04-27-2009 4:48 PM traderdrew has not replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 195 of 352 (506582)
04-27-2009 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by traderdrew
04-27-2009 4:48 PM


Re: Trade Off
I am here to sharpen my skills as a proponent of I.D.
Are you here to explore the scientific evidence, or are you here as an apologist who will defend belief in spite of the lack of evidence, or even in the face of contrary evidence?
If the latter, that's fine, but just don't call it science. Its the exact opposite of science.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by traderdrew, posted 04-27-2009 4:48 PM traderdrew has not replied

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