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Author Topic:   Why did they cover their nakedness?
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1534 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 76 of 81 (505762)
04-16-2009 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Peg
01-24-2009 7:47 AM


Tree of Knowledge
This is a more appropriate thread for this discussion.

From Message 305 in the "Prisoner of Sin" Thread.

If that were so, then why did A&E decide that their nakedness was bad?
God did not see it that way. That does not sound like they had the same knowledge as God.

My response in Message 311:

Because then they knew right from wrong. This is what happens when we over analyze a story. :laugh: God is the author of right and wrong according to you, so you tell me why he allowed them to run around naked. You've been shown the scripture where God said they knew what he knew about good and evil. Stop changing the story!

Once Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge, according to the story they had the knowledge of good and evil. The idea is that the fruit imparted that wisdom. (I know you don't agree with magic fruit). Since this story was probably written roughly 3,000 years ago the moral customs of the author's culture would have been reflected. For example, if it had been written in the equator region, nakedness probably wouldn't have been an issue. Of course we also have to look at what the Hebrews meant by nakedness. Sometimes that was a euphemism for sexual organs.

No classic word for the male genital organ exists. Gid (sinew), shafkha (spout) and keshet (bow) appear in the Bible. Later Hebrew also uses ‘limb,’ ‘arm,’ and ‘nakedness.’ No biblical word for the female genitalia exists; kava (stomach) is used. Some later usage is ‘that place’ and ‘nakedness.’

These types of writings aren't meant to address everything. They have a certain lesson or point to make. IOW, why God allowed them to run around naked when he knew that being naked was unaccpetable is irrelevant to the story.

Overanalyzing might be a good exercise for imagination, but doesn't necessarily improve on the point of the story.

It's also not a wise way to build doctrine.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Peg, posted 01-24-2009 7:47 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Peg, posted 04-21-2009 3:49 AM purpledawn has responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3007 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 77 of 81 (505984)
04-21-2009 3:49 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by purpledawn
04-16-2009 11:30 AM


Re: Tree of Knowledge
purpledawn writes:

Because then they knew right from wrong. This is what happens when we over analyze a story. God is the author of right and wrong according to you, so you tell me why he allowed them to run around naked. You've been shown the scripture where God said they knew what he knew about good and evil. Stop changing the story!

God allowed them to run around naked, not because it was bad, but because it was good in his eyes.

In turning away from Gods knowledge, they adopted their own form of knowlegde. A knowledge that was different to Gods knowledge. Hence why the decided nakedness was bad.

Now this could have something to do with Gods knowledge being within the mind and heart of A&E in their perfect condition. But upon their rebelling, they lost that internal Godly knowledge and had to rely on their own.

No magic fruit im afraid.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by purpledawn, posted 04-16-2009 11:30 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Perdition, posted 04-21-2009 10:40 AM Peg has not yet responded
 Message 79 by purpledawn, posted 04-21-2009 1:55 PM Peg has responded

    
Perdition
Member (Idle past 1315 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 78 of 81 (505996)
04-21-2009 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Peg
04-21-2009 3:49 AM


Re: Tree of Knowledge
So, going around naked is good in God's mind?

That seems interesting since it is the more religious in the country who seem to be most against the human body being shown in public.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Peg, posted 04-21-2009 3:49 AM Peg has not yet responded

    
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1534 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 79 of 81 (506005)
04-21-2009 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Peg
04-21-2009 3:49 AM


Re: Tree of Knowledge
quote:
God allowed them to run around naked, not because it was bad, but because it was good in his eyes.

In turning away from Gods knowledge, they adopted their own form of knowlegde. A knowledge that was different to Gods knowledge. Hence why the decided nakedness was bad.

Now this could have something to do with Gods knowledge being within the mind and heart of A&E in their perfect condition. But upon their rebelling, they lost that internal Godly knowledge and had to rely on their own.

No magic fruit im afraid.


The Adam and Eve story is a story of origins. Adam and Eve represent mankind and womankind. The story offers explanations for the origin of genders and their roles in society at the time, attraction of men and women to each other, marriage, and development of conscience and moral responsibility. The curses also have their job in the story.

IOW, it explains the reasons for or causes of the difficulties of life for ancient Hebrews.

How to Read the Bible

You only have the information contained within the story. Anything else unrelated to the audience of the time and you are just making up your own story.

They covered their nakedness because it was probably unacceptable in the culture of the time for adults to run around naked in public.

The story wasn't written for us today, it is a foundational myth of an ancient culture.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Peg, posted 04-21-2009 3:49 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Peg, posted 04-22-2009 4:39 AM purpledawn has responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3007 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 80 of 81 (506054)
04-22-2009 4:39 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by purpledawn
04-21-2009 1:55 PM


Re: Tree of Knowledge
purpledawn writes:

The story wasn't written for us today, it is a foundational myth of an ancient culture.

and yet here we are in 2009 still wearing clothes


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by purpledawn, posted 04-21-2009 1:55 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by purpledawn, posted 04-22-2009 7:05 AM Peg has not yet responded

    
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1534 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 81 of 81 (506067)
04-22-2009 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Peg
04-22-2009 4:39 AM


Re: Tree of Knowledge
quote:
and yet here we are in 2009 still wearing clothes
and yet there are topless beaches in Australia.

The wearing of clothes has nothing to do with the A&E story, the A&E story is one cultures way of explaining why their group wears clothes.

The French explorers and the Aboriginal Australians 1772-1839

The nakedness of the aboriginal people in Sydney, from the early years to as late as 1845, never ceased to amaze the French.

Like I said earlier, cultures on or close to the equator are going to have different ideas concerning nudity. In cold weather, clothes were necessary for obvious reasons.

Nudity in Ancient to Modern Cultures

Many of us may be unaware that nudity is a normal condition that has prevailed throughout most of mankind's existence. Anything from complete nakedness to casual body covering was a lifestyle component from prehistoric times through the Greco-Roman civilizations and into part of the Middle Ages.

Even today, in various remote areas of the warmer climes, naked societies persist as primitive tribes whose members do not wear clothes.

From the book "A History of the Jews" by Paul Johnson, page 101:

The reformers did not want to abolish the Law completely but to purge it of those elements which forbade participation in Greek culture--for instance, the ban on nudity, which kept pious Jews out of the gymnasium and stadium ...

As you can see the amount of allowed nudity is a cultural thing, so reality shows that the A&E story did not truly represent all mankind. It represented one culture.

Also if you read any history, you will probably find that Christian missionaries are probably the most responsible for making natives wear clothes.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Peg, posted 04-22-2009 4:39 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
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