Are we prisoners of sin

that scriptures shows that the Jewish mindset was that sin and imperfection (sickness/death) are linked.Jesus reply shows that he DID believe that our sin in inherited, hence why he said it was neither his parents nor himself who had sinned. Nobody in this life has a choice. We are born into this condition. good to see we agree on something.
And if you really want a list of christian laws, i will be happy to gather the information for you. ( i might start a new thread though)RE mosaic laws...they are valuable because they give us a clear guide as to how God expects us to behave. But the requirements of that law are no longer required ie animal sacrifices, capital punishment, observance of festivals, the sabbath etc. Christians did not continue to practice those aspects of the Mosaic law. and i have shown you over and over that righteousness was on 'Faith' in God. Faith motivates one to obedience. If a gentile has no faith in God, then he will not be moved to obey God and therefore will not receive of Gods favor. so if they already knew how to worship God, then why did Jesus condemn their 'way' of worship? According to Jesus, they did not know God at all. In this verse he was speaking to the religious teachers. So they were following the Mosaic law, yet that wasnt enough according to Jesus words.

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Matthew 23:13 "You shut up the kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in."

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[qs-purpledawn]IOW history and the NT authors disagree on what Judaism was and wasn't allowed to do. So it is a draw as far as history goes. [/qs]why get your jewish history from modern day people? How are they better equipped to explain how life was in the first century, then those who where actually there?Personally i dont care what modern day scholars have to say about the jews back then. Im more interested in how the Jews back then saw the world they lived in. I think its firmly established that we have no control over sin, death, illness, wickedness & suffering ... therefore we are prisoners.

Cedre,Do you need to see something physical, in order to see the spiritual?

Beholding sings and wonders sure has given a boost to my faith. However I'm not founding my faith on what I see, we are faith creatures, us Christians, and it is only a wicked nation that will asks for signs and wonders before they are convinced of God existence and power, nonetheless signs and wonders in of themselves are not evil just like money isn't inherently evil but love for it is.But getting back to your question if I understand it correctly, God is a spirit being our faith is also spiritual, and we are partly spirit, with all of these in mind I think that we can experience (see) the spiritual without ever seeing a physical manifestation of the spiritual realm.Does this answer your question?

What do you mean by spiritual here?What evidence do you have that there is any such thing as a "spiritual" being?What evidence do you have that so-called spiritual experiences are not by-products of physical events?If you cannot produce such evidence, an outside observer can conclude only that you suffer from some malady of the intellect.

spiritual: Lacking material body or form or substance or unearthly. Miracles play a role to be sure, but faith plays an even bigger role for me, I walk by faith and not by sight as far as spirituality is concerned. (Heb 11:1) Faith makes us sure of what we hope for and gives us proof of what we cannot see. I can only hope they are genuine experiences orchestrated by God himself. But the greatest cogent evidence for me for spirituality is that it continues to work for me and billions of other people worldwide, it gives life a purpose and a meaning, it causes me to want to wake up early in the morn every morning and do something stirring and exciting because I know that I have a purpose a transcendent purpose that nobody determined for me. The burden of proof is on the guy who wishes to dismiss these experiences as mere by-products of physical events.Let me tell you something on the side, on both sides of the argument people claim to have the backing of the evidence, but you know what, evidence is silent for the most part it is us who determine what the evidence is saying. Atheists claim that the evidence speaks against God, theists disagree, where does this leave us, it leaves us in the realm of faith, that is, whose report shall we put our faith in, the atheists report or the theist report? I have chosen to believe the theists report, I have chosen to believe the bible’s report, no one can hate me for what I believe because no one will like it if I hated them for what they believe. In fact most of what we accept we accept by faith.I am not denouncing science, I am basically saying that the final believe or final disbelieve in God is faith-based. Because at the end of the day when all the research ends, when all the debating comes to a close, and when all the scientists go to bed we still do not know every knowable thing and at this point you'll have to decide whose report made more sense to you, no one can decide this for you.This also touches on the issue of sin, you can either believe that you're a sinner and do something about it, Jesus came to save sinners and not those who deem they are sinless, or you can go the other way and assume the self-righteous position, that is the I have not sinned position. Hey it's your life your call no one is forcing you to believe in anything, indeed no one can force you to believe in anything.

Ah! wishfull thinking, in other words. If you can only hope, how can you claim to know?It's nice that your experiences give pleasant results. How is this evidence that the experiences are real? One can easily imagine falsehoods that would have all sorts of beneficial effects. I gather that religious experiences can be evoked by stimulating the brain electrically, so proof looks like it may be on the way.Anyway, why is the burden of proof not on the one making the claim that religious experience is supernatural? That looks to me to be the more outlandish claim. Something puzzles me about people of faith. They seem to acknowledge only two options; one believes, or disbelieves. The option of reserving judgement in the absence of solid evidence is rarely mentioned. The idea of a continuum of confidence is also often absent, although I do detect some such notion in your own post. I would appreciate your views on these other positions.I suppose that all this may be off-topic, except that, unless god(s) can be firmly established as real, the idea of sin is null, as others have pointed out before.

Indeed. As I remember my younger days, psilocybin and tetrahydrocannabinol are a couple of other ways to find "religious" experiences. They aren't "supernatural" in the least.

Excuse me Cerde, but you have this backward! The burden of proof always lies on the person making the questionable claim. Never on the person dismissing it. No they don't! You obviously don't know anything about atheism. Atheist are atheist because there is no scientific evidence that points to there being a god. Lack of evidence, it requires no faith or belief to be an atheist!

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You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill.
I will choose a path thats clear, I will choose free will. - Neil Peart"Few are those who see with their own eyes and feel with their own hearts." -Albert Einstein

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that scriptures shows that the Jewish mindset was that sin and imperfection (sickness/death) are linked.

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Jesus reply shows that he DID believe that our sin in inherited, hence why he said it was neither his parents nor himself who had sinned. Nobody in this life has a choice. We are born into this condition.

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No it does not show that sin is inherited. It shows that God can make or allow bad things to happen due to no fault on the part of the person. Neither the man no his parents sinned. Remember the book of Job. That was the point of that writing. It was countering the idea that bad things happen only to people who sin.Again reality shows us that people can choose to do right or wrong.
The OT showed that people could do right and wrong.
The NT showed that people could do right and wrong.You have not shown that people do not have the power to make a choice between right and wrong.Why do you feel Paul cancels out evidence from the OT, the NT, and reality?

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And if you really want a list of christian laws, i will be happy to gather the information for you. ( i might start a new thread though)

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A new thread with the list of Christian laws would be great. Also include why each is a law, as opposed to those that were not brought forward by Christians.

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RE mosaic laws...they are valuable because they give us a clear guide as to how God expects us to behave. But the requirements of that law are no longer required ie animal sacrifices, capital punishment, observance of festivals, the sabbath etc. Christians did not continue to practice those aspects of the Mosaic law.

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this is what we'll have to discuss in your new thread. The Jewish disciples of Jesus did continue to follow the Mosaic Laws and the Gentiles that Paul taught were never subject to the Mosaic Laws. That's why you would need to show in your new thread why any of the Mosaic Laws are now laws for Christian who never were subject to the laws of Moses.

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and i have shown you over and over that righteousness was on 'Faith' in God. Faith motivates one to obedience. If a gentile has no faith in God, then he will not be moved to obey God and therefore will not receive of Gods favor.

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But it isn't the only way. I've shown support for that statement from God. Some people may need faith in God to do what is right, some don't. Even your beloved Paul said: Gentiles didn't need faith to do what is right. Again I'm not talking about the resurrection, I'm only addressing the topic of the thread which speaks of being a prisoner of sin and the idea that people don't have a choice not to sin in this physical life or they inherit a sinful nature which makes it impossible for them not to sin in this physical life. Scripture shows otherwise. Don't confuse real day to day behavior with making the cut for some future resurrection. People are capable of behaving correctly whether they believe in a god or not. You haven't shown me otherwise.

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why get your jewish history from modern day people? How are they better equipped to explain how life was in the first century, then those who where actually there?

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Personally i dont care what modern day scholars have to say about the jews back then. Im more interested in how the Jews back then saw the world they lived in.

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Because modern day scholars and historians are the ones who would have more access to the ancient writings still available to us than the average person. Unfortunately, except for Paul, the authors of the NT weren't Jewish. So what Jews "of the time" are you relying on?

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I think its firmly established that we have no control over sin, death, illness, wickedness & suffering ... therefore we are prisoners.

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No you haven't firmly established that all people have no control over their actions. Death, illness, and suffering are not part of this discussion. Don't add. All we have to do is watch the people around and see that people do have control over their actions.You only have Paul claiming people have no control. Even later authors don't support the idea that people have no control. Reality doesn't support the idea that people have no control. What's the point in them telling people to behave or giving them laws to follow if they don't have control over their actions?

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

neither the man nor his parents were without sinat Romans 3:22 Paul said: "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, ... through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned."All of us, whether natural Jews or non-Jews, descended from the sinner Adam. Thus all of us came under the rule of sin, and all of us are facing the wages that sin pays to its servants, which is death.

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John 8:7"When they persisted in asking him, he straightened up and said to them: "Let the one of YOU that is sinless be the first to throw a stone at her." ...10Straightening up, Jesus said to her: "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?" 11She said: "No one, sir." Jesus said: "Neither do I condemn you. Go your way; from now on practice sin no more."

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it was those practicing the law that were going to stone that woman because she was a deliberate breaker of the law. Yet Jesus told all of them that, even though they were obviously practicing law, they were also sinners.why would he say this if none of them were sinners?Dont you see that even though we may attempt to live by law, we are still bound to die as a result of sin.Do you know anyone who has not died?

I am not an expert on this. How closely was Paul connected to the actual life of Christ?A lot of Paul's writing seems just plain vicious. It's as if he hijacked a promising religion and imposed his own bigotries on it.Edited by Woodsy, : spelling

Paul had no contact with the "life" of a man referred to as Jesus the Christ. There is actually a quite valid argument that Paul had no awareness of an actual man called Jesus Christ. Rather he thought of Jesus existing on a spiritual plane. A plane of existence inhabited by spiritual beings above the plane that mankind existed. The religion he wrote about is very similar to other mystery religions of the Roman era.I think a strong case can be made that christianity is actually more Paul based than Jesus based. If you read Paul's writings(the ones that scholarship show to be probably written by Paul) you can see that he had little or no awareness of the life and teachings of Jesus, as expressed in the Gospels. The Gospels date to after the writings of Paul.

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

So, Christianity is even more bogus than I had thought! Amazing!

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neither the man nor his parents were without sin

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You're adding again. Read what is written. According to Jesus, sin did not cause the problem, God did.

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at Romans 3:22 Paul said: "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, . . . through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned."

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All of us, whether natural Jews or non-Jews, descended from the sinner Adam. Thus all of us came under the rule of sin, and all of us are facing the wages that sin pays to its servants, which is death.

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So we're back to the beginning. I know what Paul said, what I've been saying is that Jesus and the OT do not support what you're claiming Paul is saying and I've shown you countless verses. Sin can't rule! Please stop the catch phrases and deal with practical application. Notice what Jesus told her at the end of what you quoted? Practice sin no more. It is clear he felt she had the power not to sin.

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it was those practicing the law that were going to stone that woman because she was a deliberate breaker of the law. Yet Jesus told all of them that, even though they were obviously practicing law, they were also sinners.

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Good grief! Jesus said repent and be baptized. I've made it plain that people are capable of sinning. You and cedre claim that people are not capable of not sinning. That's what you haven't shown. This story doesn't support that position. Actually you should be careful what you quote. This verse the way it is written actually would make Jesus a sinner, which you and cedre claim he was sinless.Since Jesus didn't condemn her either, the implication is that he also was not without sin (I'm sure you'll argue with that). A sinner is one who hasn't repented of a sin committed. Once one stops sinning they are no longer a sinner. Only those wishing to keep people under their thumb would constantly keep people in a place of guilt. This story is not evidence that Jesus feels that all mankind is incapable of refraining from wrong behavior.

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Dont you see that even though we may attempt to live by law, we are still bound to die as a result of sin.

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Do you know anyone who has not died?

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Humans die. It's a fact of life. No one has shown that believing in Jesus keeps anyone from dying a physical death. So the fact that we all die is irrelevant to the discussion.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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I think a strong case can be made that christianity is actually more Paul based than Jesus based. If you read Paul's writings(the ones that scholarship show to be probably written by Paul) you can see that he had little or no awareness of the life and teachings of Jesus, as expressed in the Gospels. The Gospels date to after the writings of Paul.

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Some articles I've read present the idea that Paul was trying to bring about the "fullness of the Gentiles". IOW, get all the Gentiles to behave and then the kingdom of God will come.As you can see by Peg and cedre, Christianity is more Paul based than Jesus based. Jesus didn't leave anything in writing for anyone to follow and once the Temple was destroyed and most of the Jewish followers killed, it was the Gentile disciples of Paul who carried on, so it isn't surprising that the doctrine and dogma come out of Paul's writings and those they think are Paul's writings.The prinsoner of sin concept is Paul's not from Jesus.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz