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Author | Topic: Are there two Christs in the Bible? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Peg Member (Idle past 4957 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
Jaywill writes: It is true. But Many skeptics actually do not search the Scriptures for life. In fact they may not search the Scripture at all themselves. They consult books that pose supposed biblical problems. Repeating these criticisms do give an impression that they have searched the Scripture and stumbled upon some difficulty. I find it strange that people go to sources other then the bible, to learn about the bible. It is much more reasonable to me that if you want to know what someone said, or how soemthign is, you'd go to the source and find out directly...but instead, they find all these obsure people who are giving their own opinion on said subject and take it as truth. its quite sad. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
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Perdition Member (Idle past 3265 days) Posts: 1593 From: Wisconsin Joined: |
It is much more reasonable to me that if you want to know what someone said, or how soemthign is, you'd go to the source and find out directly...but instead, they find all these obsure people who are giving their own opinion on said subject and take it as truth. But what do we do when we don't have the source? What we have is a multiply translated book that is attributed to a writer. In antiquity, it was often the practice of attributing something by a lesser known writer to a more famous one, so taking the "byline" at face value is a bit naive. Also, to really understand what a person means, you have to do more than just look at what they wrote down. You have to learn the idiom of the time, you have to try and figure out allusions that may have been obvious to people of that time but which mean nothing to us today, and you have to try and figure out if they were speaking sincerely, satirically, or with a hidden motive.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4957 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
Perdition writes: But what do we do when we don't have the source? What we have is a multiply translated book that is attributed to a writer. In antiquity, it was often the practice of attributing something by a lesser known writer to a more famous one, so taking the "byline" at face value is a bit naive. who the writers were is a trivial matter because the 'author' was God. The writers obviously saw it that way too seeing many of them did not draw attention to themselves directly. And whilst we do have many translations that are inaccurate, we still have the means to compare them with very ancient manuscripts.
Perdition writes: Also, to really understand what a person means, you have to do more than just look at what they wrote down. You have to learn the idiom of the time, you have to try and figure out allusions that may have been obvious to people of that time but which mean nothing to us today, and you have to try and figure out if they were speaking sincerely, satirically, or with a hidden motive. Yes i totally agree. Its not impossible to obtain and understand such information either. Archeology helps to clarify many things about the way people thought and lived in ancient times. Of course it must be looked at subjectively and compared with other data, but its certainly not impossible to know such things.
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Perdition Member (Idle past 3265 days) Posts: 1593 From: Wisconsin Joined: |
who the writers were is a trivial matter because the 'author' was God. The writers obviously saw it that way too seeing many of them did not draw attention to themselves directly. And whilst we do have many translations that are inaccurate, we still have the means to compare them with very ancient manuscripts. That's just a second level attribution, if you will. Someone writes something, says that it was really writtin by Peter, but that it was REALLY God speaking through Peter. When you can find proof that the Bible was written by god outside the Bible saying it was written by god, you might be able to convince me of that. Until then, you're taking the word of a Book that tells you to trust it because it always tells the truth, but the only reason you know it tells the truth is because it tells you it does and you should trust it because it always tells the truth...ad infinitum.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1968 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
I find it strange that people go to sources other then the bible, to learn about the bible. It is much more reasonable to me that if you want to know what someone said, or how soemthign is, you'd go to the source and find out directly...but instead, they find all these obsure people who are giving their own opinion on said subject and take it as truth. I don't object to consulting studies or theological books on the Bible. I do. But first, I believe, one has to master all the facts. First you have to have read the Bible and made yourself familiar with the facts. Then you may consult someone's opinion, check thier references and analyze the quality of their interpretations. I really think one should have first familiarized oneself with all the facts of Scripture by reading through it. If you don't have a firm grasp of the facts or at least a knowledge of where to go to review them, would be "teachers" can lead you into all kinds of foolishness. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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John 10:10 Member (Idle past 3023 days) Posts: 766 From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA Joined: |
When you can find proof that the Bible was written by god outside the Bible saying it was written by god, you might be able to convince me of that. Until then, you're taking the word of a Book that tells you to trust it because it always tells the truth, but the only reason you know it tells the truth is because it tells you it does and you should trust it because it always tells the truth...ad infinitum. I suggest you read the Gospel of John, paying paticular attention to the words of Jesus. Of course your next reply will be to say, "How can you prove Jesus actually said these words?" Jesus says this to those who can hear His voice speaking to them from the words of the Bible, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand (John 10:27-28). If you can't or won't listen to the words of Jesus, maybe you have hardened your heart to the God of the Bible, and the truth of John 6:44 is your condition. "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."
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bluescat48 Member (Idle past 4217 days) Posts: 2347 From: United States Joined: |
If you can't or won't listen to the words of Jesus, maybe you have hardened your heart to the God of the Bible, and the truth of John 6:44 is your condition. You are still trying to use the Bible to prove itself. Give us some real evidence. There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002 Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969 Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008
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Peg Member (Idle past 4957 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
jaywill writes: If you don't have a firm grasp of the facts or at least a knowledge of where to go to review them, would be "teachers" can lead you into all kinds of foolishness. who do you think has authority to teach scripture? I mean, every church believes they teach the truth, but its not logical to believe that they all do.
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John 10:10 Member (Idle past 3023 days) Posts: 766 From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA Joined: |
You are still trying to use the Bible to prove itself. Give us some real evidence. You still don't get the words of Jesus. The Jews of Jesus' day also asked for a sign from Him. Matthew 12:38-40 38 When some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You."39 But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet; 40 for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. When one rejects this sign, then don't expect to be able to hear the words of Jesus speaking to you.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1968 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
You are still trying to use the Bible to prove itself. Give us some real evidence. Often when extrabiblcal confirmation to biblical events is presented, some skeptics say that the testimony is a forgery or was concocted conspiratorially by ancient Christians. The darkening of the sun at the time of Christ's crucifixion is an astronomical event confirmed by contemporaries of the time. It is certain that it was not a solar eclipse. An article portion on Wikapedia on the dark day of Christ's crucifixion:
The 3rd-century Christian historian Sextus Julius Africanus, in a section of his work surviving in quotation by George Syncellus, stated that the chronicler Thallus had called the darkness during the crucifixion a solar eclipse.[10] Africanus objected based on the fact that a solar eclipse could not occur during Passover; the earth was between the sun and the moon during that holiday. It is unclear whether Thallus himself made any reference to the crucifixion.[11] The church historian Eusebius of Caesarea (264 — 340), in his Chronicle, cited a statement of the 2nd-century chronicler Phlegon of Tralles that during the fourth year of the 202nd Olympiad (AD 32/33) "a great eclipse of the sun occurred at the sixth hour that excelled every other before it, turning the day into such darkness of night that the stars could be seen in heaven, and the earth moved in Bithynia, toppling many buildings in the city of Nicaea".[12] In the same passage, Eusebius cited another unnamed Greek source also recording earthquakes in the same locations and an eclipse. Eusebius argued the two records had documented events that were simultaneous with the crucifixion of Jesus. I have seen skeptics attempt to cast these extrabiblcal testimony as the invention of Christians. If extrabiblcal attestation to Bible events is presented, how do I know you won't simply dismiss it as unauthentic conspiracy, the concoction of ancient Christians ? I mean you can move the goal post forever, continually making an issue of some scholar's reasonable doubts. And at least one Christian philosopher I have heard say that any world view of any type consists of some amount of circular reasoning - John Frame. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
The darkening of the sun at the time of Christ's crucifixion is an astronomical event confirmed by contemporaries of the time. It is certain that it was not a solar eclipse. Since when is 200 years after a contemporary? Why are there no other accounts but the church histories? There are no other sources and NONE that are contemporary that attest to this. If you can find a contemporary source, please let me know. We could probably publish it and you could have worldwide acclaim as the new biblical scholar on the block. Also, cherry picking of sources is very bad form. Also from Wikipedia Some writers contend that the account in the synoptic gospels is mythical and does not correspond to any historical event. During the nineteenth century, Kersey Graves argued the biblical account was too incredible and too ludicrous to merit serious notice.[23] His arguments stemmed from Gibbon’s comments on the silence of Seneca and Pliny about the crucifixion darkness. Burton Mack suggests the story was an invention originated by the author of the Gospel of Mark.[24] The unusually long length of time the eclipse is supposed to have lasted has been used an argument against its historicity, as has the lack of mention of the darkness in secular accounts and the Gospel of John.[25] One view is that the account in the synoptic gospels is a literary creation of the gospel writers, intended to heighten the sense of importance of a theologically significant event by taking a recent remembered event and applying it to the story of Jesus, just as eclipses were associated in accounts of other historical figures: "It is probable that, without any factual basis, darkness was added in order to wrap the cross in a rich symbol and/or assimilate Jesus to other worthies". Gee you would think John would mention something so momentous. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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bluescat48 Member (Idle past 4217 days) Posts: 2347 From: United States Joined: |
quote: If one can show that could be no natural way in which such phenomena can be explained, then I would have to concur that it could have some supernatural significance. There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002 Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969 Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008
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Peg Member (Idle past 4957 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
Perdition writes: When you can find proof that the Bible was written by god outside the Bible saying it was written by god, you might be able to convince me of that. Until then, you're taking the word of a Book that tells you to trust it because it always tells the truth, but the only reason you know it tells the truth is because it tells you it does and you should trust it because it always tells the truth...ad infinitum I wasnt always a believer in the bible...i wasnt always a person of faith and i certainly was not a person who grew up attending church. I became convinced of the bibles truth when I studied the prophecies of the bible. Thats what convinced me that the book really was authored by God and not any man.
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Michamus Member (Idle past 5185 days) Posts: 230 From: Ft Hood, TX Joined: |
Peg writes:
I became convinced of the bibles truth when I studied the prophecies of the bible.
I would be interested to hear what those prophecies were [Perhaps via PM as it is off topic, or maybe a new thread?] The only "prophecies" I have run into so far are either extremely vague statements that can apply to ANY time period, or have not occurred... yet.
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Perdition Member (Idle past 3265 days) Posts: 1593 From: Wisconsin Joined: |
You should read the works of H.P. Lovecraft and see the words Cthullu spoke to him.
Of course, you'll probably say, "How do we know that Cthullu spoke those words?" But to anyone who opens their hearts and minds to hear it will hear the life sucking screech from Cthullu as it chills the very marrow in your bones.
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