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Author Topic:   Are we prisoners of sin
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 345 of 454 (505917)
04-20-2009 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 342 by purpledawn
04-19-2009 10:34 AM


Re: Contradictions
purpledawn writes:
Christianity today is wishy washy
its not wishy washy at all. Its exactly the same as it always was.
People just dont understand it and thats not because its confusing, because its not. Those who dont understand either are clouded by non biblical dogma, or they have an agenda.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by purpledawn, posted 04-19-2009 10:34 AM purpledawn has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 354 of 454 (505977)
04-21-2009 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 346 by purpledawn
04-20-2009 7:24 AM


Re: Sin and Salvation
purpledawn writes:
Jesus did not teach that we inherited sin from A&E or that death is proof of sin.... Show me that Jesus taught what you're saying.
quote:
Matt 9:2"And, look! they were bringing him a paralyzed man lying on a bed. On seeing their faith Jesus said to the paralytic: "Take courage, child; your sins are forgiven." ...6However, in order for YOU to know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" then he said to the paralytic: "Get up, pick up your bed, and go to your home."
Jesus believed the imperfection of man, as seen by all his ailments stemmed from sin. Otherwise why would he cure a person and say that the persons 'sins were forgiven' ?
purpledawn writes:
See you contradict again. The only means of resurrection for the dead is for sin to be done away with. But people still sin.
Plus sin is breaking God's law, which you said has nothing to do with having a spot in the resurrection. Make up your mind. You said it is a gift. So behavior is irrelevant. Is it an unconditional gift or not?
Yes people still sin, and sin is still in the world of mankind. That does not mean that it will continue indefinitely. God's judgment has not been executed yet. But Jesus, by way of illustration, showed that the sinful world will come to its conclusion. This means that any who are deliberately practicing what God deems as bad, will be judged accordingly. So it IS conditional. It depends on a persons willingness to at least 'try' to live by Gods standards.
quote:
Matt 13:36"Then after dismissing the crowds he went into the house. And his disciples came to him and said: "Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field." 37In response he said: "The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man (Jesus); 38the field is the world; as for the fine seed, these are the sons of the kingdom (Christs Disciples); but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one (sinful mankind who refuse to accept Jesus as their rightful King), 39and the enemy that sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things , and the reapers are angels. 40Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things.
When all unrepentant sinners (weeds) are evicted, then those left over (fine seed) will be given the opportunity to return to the perfect condition that God had originally purposed.
purpledawn writes:
Apparently not since you also say that to show faith one must adopt God's laws or Christian laws, you still haven't been able to clearly show God's laws or Christian laws that a believer is held accountable to.
I have shown many of them but you have overlooked them. Just open the Christian scriptures and you will find them.
purpledawn writes:
What I'm reading is that following God's law does not make one righteous or get one on the list for resurrection, only faith in Jesus Christ can get one on the list.
right, and a person with faith in Jesus will 'follow' Jesus. Faith is based on knowledge of Jesus and the way of true worship that he established. That 'Way' is found in the Christian Greek scriptures and those with faith will use those scriptures to worship God in the way God desires to be worshiped.
purpledawn writes:
I've already shown you several times in the OT that we are counted righteous for following God's law and the law of the land.
Abraham lived before the Mosaic Law existed and yet he was called by God as a 'Righteous' one. God even went so far as to call him 'my friend' ..... So how cam following the Mosaic Law constitute a person as righteous? Other examples of righteous ones who did not live by the Mosaic Law are Abel, Enoch, Rahab. All righteous and none lived by the Mosaic Law.
___________
About Pilate telling the Religious Leaders to exectute Jesus and they saying that they had no right to exectute anyone.
There are obviously different ideas about this. But when the Romans took over ruling the Jewish lands, they imposed their own laws onto the Jews. So the Romans had Civil authority.
There is evidence that the Romans allowed the Jews to maintain Religious authority though. Jewish historian Flavius Josephus wrote an eyewitness account of the Roman assault on Jerusalem in 70C.E., He described how Titus's objected to the rebels who retreated into the temple precinct. Some of these bloodied fighters were in areas that had been off limits because of their sacredness.
Titus was reported as saying...
"You disgusting people! Didn’t you put up that balustrade [or low barrier dividing off part of the courtyard] to guard your Holy House? Didn’t you at intervals along it place slabs inscribed in Greek characters and our own, forbidding anyone to go beyond the parapet?
And didn’t we give you leave to execute anyone who did go beyond it, even if he was a Roman? Why then, you guilty men, are you now trampling dead bodies inside it?" The Jewish War.
The key to this argument is in the last paragraph where Titus says "didn't we give you leave to execute anyone who did not beyond it"
this indicates that the Romans allowed the Jews to practice their Religious law code....including the death penalty...for those who broke the religious laws.
purpledawn writes:
So what are God's Christian Laws that when followed allow one to show faith in God and win a spot in the resurrection?
Do you have that list to share yet?
I'm sure you can find them in the Greek scriptures.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by purpledawn, posted 04-20-2009 7:24 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by purpledawn, posted 04-21-2009 7:28 AM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 355 of 454 (505978)
04-21-2009 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 352 by bluescat48
04-20-2009 8:20 PM


which one?
bluescat48 writes:
And which one is that?, and be specific.
I could tell you the one I found, but each must conduct their own search to be convinced of it.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by bluescat48, posted 04-20-2009 8:20 PM bluescat48 has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 356 of 454 (505979)
04-21-2009 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 347 by Cedre
04-20-2009 9:31 AM


Re: woodsy
Cedre writes:
Now I can tell you that I have seen all of the above take place in my church and in my particular denomination, whether or not you believe me is up to you. You can try to come up with all sorts of explanations and reasons that challenge what I have just said, but frankly I am not bothered because I know what I have seen with my own two eyes,
Cedre that may be true, you may have seen it. But how can you be sure that God is its source? Apostle Paul said that powerful works were going to come to an end
quote:
1 Corinthians 13:8 "Whether there are gifts of prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with."
Remember Jesus strong warning of those who would 'expel demons in his name, and perform powerful works in this name' and yet he will say to them "get away from me you workers of lawlessness." Matthew 7:21-23
And why?
because "Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light." 2Corinthians 11:14

This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by Cedre, posted 04-20-2009 9:31 AM Cedre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 04-21-2009 1:16 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 359 by Cedre, posted 04-21-2009 9:03 AM Peg has replied
 Message 360 by purpledawn, posted 04-21-2009 9:53 AM Peg has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 361 of 454 (506061)
04-22-2009 6:20 AM
Reply to: Message 358 by purpledawn
04-21-2009 7:28 AM


Re: Sin and Salvation
purpledawn writes:
Jesus didn't have to believe anything all he had to do was look around. Yes he knew people screwed up. That doesn't take a revelation. He did not suggest that all ailments came from sin.
John 9
1. As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth.
2. His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
3. "Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.
Jesus did not teach that we inherited sin from A&E. Remember the point of the Book of Job. Bad things can happen to good people through no fault of their own.
that scriptures shows that the Jewish mindset was that sin and imperfection (sickness/death) are linked.
Jesus reply shows that he DID believe that our sin in inherited, hence why he said it was neither his parents nor himself who had sinned. Nobody in this life has a choice. We are born into this condition.
purpledawn writes:
Which is exactly what I've been saying. God expects us to repent and stop the wrong behavior.
So we are still required to live by God's standards. (You haven't listed them yet, BTW) The Mosaic Law is the only list of standards supposedly from God in the Bible beside the summary by Jesus.
good to see we agree on something.
And if you really want a list of christian laws, i will be happy to gather the information for you. ( i might start a new thread though)
RE mosaic laws...they are valuable because they give us a clear guide as to how God expects us to behave. But the requirements of that law are no longer required ie animal sacrifices, capital punishment, observance of festivals, the sabbath etc. Christians did not continue to practice those aspects of the Mosaic law.
purpledawn writes:
Gentiles on the other had are not required to follow the Mosaic Laws, but that parable tells me that Gentiles who are righteous in their age will not be plucked with those doing evil. I've already shown you several times that righteousness is granted based on behavior.
and i have shown you over and over that righteousness was on 'Faith' in God. Faith motivates one to obedience. If a gentile has no faith in God, then he will not be moved to obey God and therefore will not receive of Gods favor.
purpledawn writes:
You're contradicting the story of the weeds and what you just said above.
Jesus didn't teach worship, he taught repentance and right behavior. The Jews he taught already knew the Jewish way of worship.
so if they already knew how to worship God, then why did Jesus condemn their 'way' of worship? According to Jesus, they did not know God at all. In this verse he was speaking to the religious teachers. So they were following the Mosaic law, yet that wasnt enough according to Jesus words.
quote:
Matthew 23:13 "You shut up the kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in."
[qs-purpledawn]IOW history and the NT authors disagree on what Judaism was and wasn't allowed to do. So it is a draw as far as history goes. [/qs]
why get your jewish history from modern day people? How are they better equipped to explain how life was in the first century, then those who where actually there?
Personally i dont care what modern day scholars have to say about the jews back then. Im more interested in how the Jews back then saw the world they lived in.
purpledawn writes:
Peg, you have just shown that neither believers nor nonbelievers are prisoners of sin. Each has the capability to stop wrong behavior and to do right behavior based on the laws and principles available to them.
I think its firmly established that we have no control over sin, death, illness, wickedness & suffering ... therefore we are prisoners.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by purpledawn, posted 04-21-2009 7:28 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 369 by purpledawn, posted 04-22-2009 2:00 PM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 362 of 454 (506062)
04-22-2009 6:23 AM
Reply to: Message 359 by Cedre
04-21-2009 9:03 AM


Re: woodsy
Cedre,
Do you need to see something physical, in order to see the spiritual?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by Cedre, posted 04-21-2009 9:03 AM Cedre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 363 by Cedre, posted 04-22-2009 6:58 AM Peg has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 370 of 454 (506155)
04-23-2009 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 369 by purpledawn
04-22-2009 2:00 PM


Re: Sin and Salvation
purpledawn writes:
No it does not show that sin is inherited. It shows that God can make or allow bad things to happen due to no fault on the part of the person. Neither the man no his parents sinned. Remember the book of Job. That was the point of that writing. It was countering the idea that bad things happen only to people who sin.
neither the man nor his parents were without sin
at Romans 3:22 Paul said: "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, ... through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned."
All of us, whether natural Jews or non-Jews, descended from the sinner Adam. Thus all of us came under the rule of sin, and all of us are facing the wages that sin pays to its servants, which is death.
quote:
John 8:7"When they persisted in asking him, he straightened up and said to them: "Let the one of YOU that is sinless be the first to throw a stone at her." ...10Straightening up, Jesus said to her: "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?" 11She said: "No one, sir." Jesus said: "Neither do I condemn you. Go your way; from now on practice sin no more."
it was those practicing the law that were going to stone that woman because she was a deliberate breaker of the law. Yet Jesus told all of them that, even though they were obviously practicing law, they were also sinners.
why would he say this if none of them were sinners?
Dont you see that even though we may attempt to live by law, we are still bound to die as a result of sin.
Do you know anyone who has not died?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by purpledawn, posted 04-22-2009 2:00 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 371 by Woodsy, posted 04-23-2009 10:27 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 374 by purpledawn, posted 04-23-2009 12:15 PM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 377 of 454 (506228)
04-24-2009 5:48 AM
Reply to: Message 373 by Woodsy
04-23-2009 12:07 PM


Re: Sin and Salvation
Woodsy writes:
So, Christianity is even more bogus than I had thought! Amazing!
are you going to base your opinion on that one misleading opinion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 373 by Woodsy, posted 04-23-2009 12:07 PM Woodsy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 379 by Woodsy, posted 04-24-2009 8:28 AM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 378 of 454 (506235)
04-24-2009 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 374 by purpledawn
04-23-2009 12:15 PM


Re: Sin and Salvation
Purpledawn,
Jesus was making clear that the blindness was not the result of some specific sin on the part of the blind man or his parents. Rather, it was the result of the imperfection all of us have inherited from Adam and thus we are subject to defects such as being born blind.
Jesus further words that "this happened that the work of God might be made manifest" was in reference to himself because the mans defect was an opportunity for Jesus to make manifest the works of God.
He went on and said
"We must work the works of him that sent me while it is day, The night is coming when no man can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the world’s light." Soon Jesus’ death will prevent him from displaying the works of God, in this case, the healing work of God.
So rather then God being the 'reason' for our defects, God is the 'answer' to our defects.
purpledawn writes:
So we're back to the beginning. I know what Paul said, what I've been saying is that Jesus and the OT do not support what you're claiming Paul is saying and I've shown you countless verses. Sin can't rule! Please stop the catch phrases and deal with practical application. Notice what Jesus told her at the end of what you quoted?
I have showed you scripture upon scripture that prove otherwise. The OT is very clear when it comes to sin. YOu have yet to show any scriptures that prove what you are claiming.
quote:
Psalm 51: Show me favor, O God,... wipe out my transgressions.
5Look! With error I was brought forth with birth pains,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
when it came to sickness, the Mosaic Law stated
quote:
Leviticus 14: 2"This will become the law of the leper in the day for establishing his purification, when he must be brought to the priest...19And the priest must render up the sin offering and make atonement for the one cleansing himself from his impurity"
So sickness of Leprosy was related to sin becuase the effects of sin are sickness and death. Also in the Mosaic law where the SIN OFFERING for even 'unintentional' sins was a major feature. So how can a person sin 'unintentionally'??? They do so because, like the leper, they have no control over sin.
purpledawn writes:
Practice sin no more. It is clear he felt she had the power not to sin.
you said the right words, but you failed to grasp the meaning.
You might want to reconsider what the word 'Practice' might mean to a prostitute.
purpledawn writes:
Since Jesus didn't condemn her either, the implication is that he also was not without sin (I'm sure you'll argue with that).
I only seek to clarify anything that is not scriptural or that contradicts it. Everything you say contradicts scripture because everything you believe comes from sources other then the bible. The scriptures you quote are out of context and do not take all of the writings into account. You do not believe that the Apostles such as Paul are authoritative nor do you seem to believe the authority of the scriptures themselves as the word of God. Most of its stories you claim to be nothing more then myths. And you deny God his personal name... a name by which he is identified in the OT thousands of times over.
If you want to teach the scriptures, you must first believe them to be true yourself.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by purpledawn, posted 04-23-2009 12:15 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 380 by purpledawn, posted 04-24-2009 9:09 AM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 382 of 454 (506300)
04-25-2009 3:16 AM
Reply to: Message 380 by purpledawn
04-24-2009 9:09 AM


Re: Sin and Salvation
purpledawn writes:
Wrong. You cannot pull that from the plain reading of the text. Jesus did not imply any inherited imperfection from the imaginary first man. Remember, you took the magic out of the A&E story. Adam and Eve weren't actual individuals.
understanding doesnt come from reading one part of one verse...it comes from taking ALL of the bible into consideration...such as all those scriptures I showed which confirm the truth that mankind are born into sin which has lead to sickness and death and the requirement for an atonement which leads us back to God.
You are taking a part of 1 verse and producing a belief that is no where else in the bible.
purpledawn writes:
Did you read all of Psalm 51? That was David wailing after he committed adultery. It is a song which David wrote to express his feelings. It is creative expression not necessarily a statement of events. David is talking about himself, not all of mankind. Just because David is wailing poor, poor, pitiful me; doesn't mean all of mankind inherited sin. It does not support Paul's idea that all mankind is incapable of not sinning.
again you fail to grasp the purpose of 'inspired' writings. Within the writings are universal truths. The truth that david expresses in Ps 51 is that of being born into sin. David was not the only man to ever be born into the condition of sin... its a universal truth that God is making known to ALL mankind.
purpledawn writes:
I didn't say God was the reason for "our" defects, the text implies that God is the reason for that man's defect so that people could see Jesus heal him.
again you fail to take into consideration the truth that God does not bring evil things upon anyone. He did not 'give' the man the defect so he could show his power...He 'removed' the defect to show his power.
purpledawn writes:
Yes I'm familiar with Leviticus. I agree that some ancient peoples felt that illness was caused by sin. That's why those men asked Jesus the question they did. The Book of Job was written to counter that idea.
Today we know that sickness has nothing to do with sin. Maybe you do, but the author of Job didn't and I don't think Jesus did.
Who created the Law? It was given to Moses by God...according to God, sickness required a sin offering. I am far from hung up on sin. I understand that it means to 'miss' in both Hebrew and Greek. What we as a race are 'missing' is the ability to live according to Gods perfection in mind, body and spirit. Thats what independence from God has done and that is what sin is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 380 by purpledawn, posted 04-24-2009 9:09 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 385 by PaulK, posted 04-25-2009 3:43 AM Peg has replied
 Message 389 by purpledawn, posted 04-25-2009 9:41 AM Peg has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 383 of 454 (506301)
04-25-2009 3:33 AM
Reply to: Message 381 by purpledawn
04-24-2009 2:12 PM


Re: Zoroastrianism
purpledawn writes:
If a group wants to follow Paul's teachings I have no problem, but they need to make it clear. The mental abuse used by some groups to keep people feeling helpless is not what Jesus taught.
If you throw away Gods teachings as expressed by Paul, you are missing out some vital christian understanding
i can understand why you keep asking what christian laws actually are.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 381 by purpledawn, posted 04-24-2009 2:12 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 388 by purpledawn, posted 04-25-2009 7:58 AM Peg has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 384 of 454 (506302)
04-25-2009 3:43 AM
Reply to: Message 379 by Woodsy
04-24-2009 8:28 AM


Re: Sin and Salvation
woodsy writes:
Well, it only adds to indications that seem to be piling up. Christianity looks to be a mismash concocted of features of other mystery religions that were around in the Roman era plus bits of old testament prophecy stuck in to make it look like they had been fulfilled.
there is certainly a lot of adaptations to be found in the realm of Christendom. But that does not mean there is no christian church that is practicing true Christianity... the form of Christianity established in the 1st century.
Jesus told his disciples that it would happen, and the Apostles indicated that it had already begun toward the end of the 1st century.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 379 by Woodsy, posted 04-24-2009 8:28 AM Woodsy has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 386 of 454 (506308)
04-25-2009 4:50 AM
Reply to: Message 385 by PaulK
04-25-2009 3:43 AM


Re: Sin and Salvation
PaulK writes:
Well you obviously think that the words attributed to Jesus are incorrect. Can you explain then why you chose to quote them ? And whether you think that it is the Gospel that is in error or Jesus himself ?
I certainly do believe Jesus words. If i did not, i wouldnt bother arguing for them.
What is incorrect is purpledawns explanation of the verse in question. In msg 369 she said "It shows that God can make or allow bad things to happen due to no fault on the part of the person."
this is not in harmony with what we know of God and what the bible says such as James 1:13"When under trial, let no one say: "I am being tried by God." For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone."
So Jesus obviously did not mean that God made the man blind, that is contrary to the very personality of God.
I believe that 'All scripture is inspired by God' therefore, if one belief contradicts a scripture, then its the belief that is wrong, not the word of God.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 385 by PaulK, posted 04-25-2009 3:43 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 387 by PaulK, posted 04-25-2009 5:11 AM Peg has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 390 of 454 (506397)
04-26-2009 12:59 AM


purpledawn writes:
Jesus didn't have to believe anything all he had to do was look around. Yes he knew people screwed up. That doesn't take a revelation. He did not suggest that all ailments came from sin.
Jesus did not teach that we inherited sin from A&E
In the sermon on the Mount, Jesus told the crowds
Matt 7: "...if you, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those asking"
Do you think he would have told those people that that they were wicked if he knew that they were not sinners?
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 391 by Michamus, posted 04-26-2009 4:41 AM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 392 of 454 (506417)
04-26-2009 5:27 AM
Reply to: Message 391 by Michamus
04-26-2009 4:41 AM


the message of Jesus sermon shows that Jesus viewed those who were there, including his disciples, as wicked/evil people.... this is because they were all sinners.
Its also why John the Baptizer baptized as a sign of 'repentance from sins' Acts 19:4 "4Paul said: '"John baptized with the baptism [in symbol] of repentance and telling the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus."
And John the Baptizer himself believed that Jesus would remove sin from mankind for he was recorded as saying...
John 1:29 "...See, the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world!"
This is why Jesus called all those there, including his disciples, as wicked...because they were sinners and he believed it and knew it...he also knew that his purpose was to remove sin from all mankind
And the apostles agreed with this idea for John says at John 3:16 16"...he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by Michamus, posted 04-26-2009 4:41 AM Michamus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 393 by Michamus, posted 04-26-2009 6:05 AM Peg has replied

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