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Author Topic:   Is Evolution Science?
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 31 of 55 (50226)
08-12-2003 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by joshua221
08-12-2003 1:46 PM


"[...] I know the difference between gaining immunities from disease and Evolution! For the bacteria starting to die again, the answer is this: they weren't strong enough, their immunities gave in. Not Evolution!"
This is rich! What an unbelievably stupid answer! Have you ever actually learned ANYTHING?
If you do not want to look an utter fool, you'd better start explaining this. I am going to love hearing you explain how the immune system of bacteria works. Everybody, sit back and enjoy the show.
Shees!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by joshua221, posted 08-12-2003 1:46 PM joshua221 has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 32 of 55 (50274)
08-12-2003 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by joshua221
08-12-2003 1:46 PM


prophecyexclaimed responds to me:
[description of the E. coli/T4 experiment deleted for space]
quote:
This isn't evolution this is call immunities.
Nope. Can't be. If it were immunity, then it would be something that all the bacteria could do since they are all descended from a single ancestor, remember? (Hmmm...perhaps I shouldn't have deleted the description of the experiment.)
What you are claiming is that there was some hidden or dormant or masked ability within the bacteria to fend off the phage. But if that were true, then the entire lawn should behave the same way. If one is immune, then all are immune because they all come from the same singular source.
quote:
Ever hear of the Native Americans? If not listen to this: When the Europeans came to America they brought disease that they were already immuned to from being around it and being infected with it and dying from it.
Yeah...they were completely wiped out.
quote:
Ever hear of vaccinations? Same concept. Don't give me that, I know the difference between gaining immunities from disease and Evolution!
Who vaccinated the bacteria? I know it wasn't in the description. Damn...I need to describe it again, don't I?
You take a single bacterium. You do know what that means, right? Just one. Only one. You then let that single bacterium reproduce until it forms a lawn. You then infect the lawn with phage.
Now, if there was immunity to this phage, then they should all survive. But since the exact opposite is true, we determine that the problem is that there is no immunity.
If any one of these bacteria is immune, then they're all immune because they're all genetically descended from a single ancestor.
So where on earth did they get this immunity from? If one can do it, then they all can do it. Why did only a few bacteria survive? Why not the whole lawn?
quote:
For the bacteria starting to die again, the answer is this: they weren't strong enough, their immunities gave in. Not Evolution!
You obviously didn't read my post. Here it is again:
See, if a bacterium experienced a reversion mutation such that it would be susceptible to T4 phage, it would immediately be infected and killed, leaving it surrounded by K4 bacteria which would immediately take over the space just vacated. In short, K-type bacteria could never take hold.
The same thing applies even if we think it's an immune response: We started with a single ancestor that was immune to T4 phage. It reproduced to form a lawn. Any bacterium that had lost that immunity (how? They're all descended from a single ancestor that was immune) is surrounded by bacteria that still have it. So let it die...it merely makes room for the immune bacteria to reproduce and fill in.
Thus, we would never, ever see any plaques: All the bacteria that "weren't strong enough" would die and be replaced by those that were.
But that isn't what we see. Instead, we get to watch the lawn die.
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by joshua221, posted 08-12-2003 1:46 PM joshua221 has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 33 of 55 (50278)
08-12-2003 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Parasomnium
08-12-2003 5:52 PM


I know sometimes it doesn't seem like it, but we do try to encourage a lighter approach, especially with our younger members.
------------------
--Percy
EvC Forum Administrator

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Parasomnium, posted 08-12-2003 5:52 PM Parasomnium has not replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 55 (50287)
08-13-2003 12:18 AM


ok
OK I give up, some of this stuff I do not understand at all, maybe I don't belong here. I guess I should get some more knowledge on the subject. I know where I stand but I don't know how to argue these things or if some things are acceptable or not I need to figure it out. When your talking about that experiment (RRhain) I just get lost quick, and need some step by step explanations (sadly enough.) I'll probably not get into this stuff for a while just because most of you guys are way over my level and I am getting overcrowded as it is. So thanks for the Debates but I have to back up a bit right now, I'm sure you guys realized this a while ago. So hopefully I'll be back with some decent arguments. Cya guys.
------------------
"As by this theory innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth? The number of intermediate links between all living and extinct species must have been inconceivably great!" (emphasis added) -- Charles Darwin

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by John, posted 08-13-2003 1:16 AM joshua221 has not replied
 Message 37 by roxrkool, posted 08-13-2003 1:41 AM joshua221 has not replied
 Message 48 by Loudmouth, posted 08-19-2003 5:25 PM joshua221 has not replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 55 (50290)
08-13-2003 12:20 AM


If you do not want to look an utter fool, you'd better start explaining this. I am going to love hearing you explain how the immune system of bacteria works. Everybody, sit back and enjoy the show.
Guess now I do look like an utter fool... Oh well I least I stood up for myself . later
------------------
"As by this theory innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth? The number of intermediate links between all living and extinct species must have been inconceivably great!" (emphasis added) -- Charles Darwin

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Parasomnium, posted 08-13-2003 3:19 AM joshua221 has not replied
 Message 39 by Mammuthus, posted 08-13-2003 4:27 AM joshua221 has not replied
 Message 40 by Percy, posted 08-13-2003 6:29 AM joshua221 has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 55 (50294)
08-13-2003 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by joshua221
08-13-2003 12:18 AM


Re: ok
quote:
OK I give up, some of this stuff I do not understand at all, maybe I don't belong here.
Now that you've gotten over the bombast you are probably in a pretty good position to participate. If you are willing to listen, just ask. Most people here won't lie to you.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by joshua221, posted 08-13-2003 12:18 AM joshua221 has not replied

  
roxrkool
Member (Idle past 988 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 37 of 55 (50297)
08-13-2003 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by joshua221
08-13-2003 12:18 AM


Re: ok
PE, this is what I wanted to hear from you. That you do not know it enough to debate these topics with us. You have made a HUGE leap forward and I for one am very happy to see it. I respect you much more now as it takes a mature and intelligent person to admit when they are in over their head.
As you've been forced to admit, you don't know nearly enough science, even after having read those creationist sites. Creationism feeds off people's ignorance and they want you to close your mind to real science. Don't let anyone TELL you what you should think, nor let them feed it to you through a bottle.
If you are truly interested in learning science, pick up some books and read through them yourself. Go talk to the experts, even, most professors enjoy speaking to young people. Heck, stick around here and pick the brains you've already met. With your new attitude, people here would love to discuss things with you - as long as you are willing to learn and open your mind.
I'm sorry you had a rough time here, but the fact is, you came in here with guns ablazing thinking you were going to blow us all away with your wonderous knowledge, when in truth, you didn't even understand your own position. Thing is, you stumbled onto a messageboard that happens to have a lot of extremely well informed and educated people, most of whom have gone round and round with many creationists. You certainly didn't get off easy here, but perhaps we managed to make an impact on you... just a little one???
Keep looking for answers, PE, but make sure you take a look at all the available sources, not just the creationist ones. Also, no matter what anyone tells you, believing in evolution does not preclude a belief in God.
Take care.
P.S. Take a look at some of the things Kurt Wise has to say about Creationism. He's at least honest about why he's a creationist, unlike most YECs.
[This message has been edited by roxrkool, 08-13-2003]

This message is a reply to:
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Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 38 of 55 (50307)
08-13-2003 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by joshua221
08-13-2003 12:20 AM


Way to go!
"Guess now I do look like an utter fool... Oh well I least I stood up for myself . later"
PE, that's one of the most gracious retreats I have ever seen a creationist perform. All of a sudden you don't look like a fool at all. Chapeau! I think it's my turn now to apologize to you for my harsh comment. I'm sorry I did that, I really am.
Please don't go. Stay around and learn. Take your time, there's no rush. Tell you what, I now invite YOU to sit back and enjoy the show.
Good luck.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by joshua221, posted 08-13-2003 12:20 AM joshua221 has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 39 of 55 (50311)
08-13-2003 4:27 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by joshua221
08-13-2003 12:20 AM


Hi pe,
If you leave now that would be a pity. It should motivate you to learn. This stuff is interesting and though the primary literature is very technical, there are a lot of books for the general public that would help you get a handle on the issues...just ask around here and you will get tons of references...there are even a bunch of books written specifically on the evolution versus creationism debates...I would suggest reading books and not relying exclusively on internet sites.
cheers,
M

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by joshua221, posted 08-13-2003 12:20 AM joshua221 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 40 of 55 (50329)
08-13-2003 6:29 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by joshua221
08-13-2003 12:20 AM


Hi, Proph!
I hope you continue to challenge evolution, and that you find the debate interesting enough to be worth spending the effort to better familiarize yourself with both sides of the issue.
I know it is self-serving of me to say this as an evolutionist, but one of the realities of this on-line debate is that many Creationist sites include, to varying degrees, false information. Science requires that theories be constructed upon real evidence that can be confirmed and/or replicated by other scientists. What makes this debate site so challenging for the Creationist side is that it insists that members support their positions with evidence.
But the requirement for evidence goes both ways. Don't let people just tell you things. Ask them for the evidence that supports their arguments.
Anyway, welcome aboard!
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by joshua221, posted 08-13-2003 12:20 AM joshua221 has not replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 55 (50374)
08-13-2003 12:45 PM


Thanks a lot, and will do percipent.
------------------
"As by this theory innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth? The number of intermediate links between all living and extinct species must have been inconceivably great!" (emphasis added) -- Charles Darwin

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by DC85, posted 08-13-2003 11:48 PM joshua221 has replied

  
DC85
Member (Idle past 379 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 42 of 55 (50475)
08-13-2003 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by joshua221
08-13-2003 12:45 PM


before you go read my post to you in the old Earth Topic I stopped Debating to Explain my life at your age.
Also great work most Adults never will admit they are wrong. Most when they are over there head here they just Leave to avoid answering. Congrats on being Mature about it. Now we all have respect for you hope you do more research However don't be suprised if you do and Come Back as an Evolutionist.... it Happened to me. its great to see Someone interested in Researching there faith at this Young age.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by joshua221, posted 08-13-2003 12:45 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by joshua221, posted 08-14-2003 12:54 AM DC85 has replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 55 (50488)
08-14-2003 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by DC85
08-13-2003 11:48 PM


Believe me that won't be happening. Haha
------------------
"As by this theory innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth? The number of intermediate links between all living and extinct species must have been inconceivably great!" (emphasis added) -- Charles Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by DC85, posted 08-13-2003 11:48 PM DC85 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Karl, posted 08-15-2003 8:46 AM joshua221 has not replied
 Message 47 by DC85, posted 08-16-2003 3:51 PM joshua221 has replied

  
Karl
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 55 (50638)
08-15-2003 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by joshua221
08-14-2003 12:54 AM


There speaks the confidence of one who is not yet acquainted with the mounds of evidence he will find if he looks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by joshua221, posted 08-14-2003 12:54 AM joshua221 has not replied

Replies to this message:
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MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1392 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 45 of 55 (50640)
08-15-2003 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Karl
08-15-2003 8:46 AM


Evidence schmevidence. I've never changed my mind since I was fourteen. And you can't make me.
------------------
En la tierra de ciegos, el tuerto es el Rey.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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