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Author Topic:   The timeline of the Bible
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 241 of 316 (506401)
04-26-2009 1:42 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by Rrhain
04-24-2009 5:09 AM


Rrhain writes:
The six creative days are the creation of the heavens and the earth described in the first sentence.
you will need to explain why in Vs1:1 'created' was written as a completed action....especially seeing what follows it is written as progressive actions. Many scholars have explained that verses are not speaking of the same progressive action. You will need to show otherwise.
Rrhain writes:
That doesn't answer the question. What you are saying is that when the text says, "In the beginning," it doesn't really mean "beginning" but rather "later." If the point was to talk about the reformation of a previously created object, why talk about the "beginning"?
do the words of Genesis say that this happened 7,000 years ago? No, it gives no time period. "The beginning" is a simple way that Moses explained that at a certain point in time, God 'began' his creation of the universe and all that is in it.
then later he proceeded to prepare the earth in the 6 creative periods.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Rrhain, posted 04-24-2009 5:09 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Rrhain, posted 04-27-2009 5:00 AM Peg has replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 242 of 316 (506512)
04-27-2009 4:54 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by kbertsche
04-25-2009 9:14 PM


kbertsche responds to me:
Well, no. No, he doesn't.
I'm still waiting for an explanation for why Genesis 1 talks about "the beginning" if life, the universe, and everything were already in existence. That necessarily means it isn't the beginning but rather "later." The grammar specifically says that the six days of creation were "the beginning," that there was no previous creation, that the appearance of the earth on the third day was its origination, etc.
How does "the beginning" come to mean "sometime later"?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by kbertsche, posted 04-25-2009 9:14 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by kbertsche, posted 04-27-2009 1:10 PM Rrhain has replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 243 of 316 (506513)
04-27-2009 5:00 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by Peg
04-26-2009 1:42 AM


Peg responds to me:
quote:
you will need to explain why in Vs1:1 'created' was written as a completed action
Because the creation of life, the universe, and everything happened in the past, in "the beginning," and thus was a completed action. As I already pointed out to you:
"Twenty years ago, I had attended college. There was orientation and some parent informational sessions. And on the second day, they had Frosh Run."
That doesn't mean that there was some previous matriculation before I went through orientation. It is a direct statement that my collegiate experience was in the past and has been completed. And now, you get to hear about the details of what happened while I was there.
quote:
do the words of Genesis say that this happened 7,000 years ago?
Yes. The story of Genesis starts from "the beginning," not "later," and thus the six days described are the very first days that ever happened, not some later ones, for we it all happened at "the beginning."
The days are literal, 24-hour days.
Genesis (and a few other passages in other books) give a timeline for the precise number of years that passed between "the beginning" and the founding of Solomon's temple.
The temple is considered to have been founded about 950 BCE.
Adding all of them up, you get about 6000 years from "the beginning" to now.
quote:
"The beginning" is a simple way that Moses explained that at a certain point in time, God 'began' his creation of the universe and all that is in it.
Huh? "The beginning" doesn't actually mean the beginning? It means "later"?
quote:
then later he proceeded to prepare the earth in the 6 creative periods.
Indeed. Those "creative periods" were six, literal, 24-hour days and they started at "the beginning." There is no previous time for that would mean that "the beginning" wasn't actually the beginning but was "later."

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Peg, posted 04-26-2009 1:42 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Peg, posted 04-27-2009 5:12 AM Rrhain has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 244 of 316 (506515)
04-27-2009 5:12 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Rrhain
04-27-2009 5:00 AM


Rrhain writes:
Yes. The story of Genesis starts from "the beginning," not "later," and thus the six days described are the very first days that ever happened, not some later ones, for we it all happened at "the beginning."
what does the physical evidence show?
is the universe only 6,000 odd years old?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Rrhain, posted 04-27-2009 5:00 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Rrhain, posted 05-11-2009 3:40 AM Peg has replied

kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 245 of 316 (506549)
04-27-2009 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by Rrhain
04-27-2009 4:54 AM


quote:
I'm still waiting for an explanation for why Genesis 1 talks about "the beginning" if life, the universe, and everything were already in existence. That necessarily means it isn't the beginning but rather "later." The grammar specifically says that the six days of creation were "the beginning," that there was no previous creation, that the appearance of the earth on the third day was its origination, etc.
False. The grammar of the preterite (i.e. waw-consecutive construction) clearly implies that the six days of creation occurred AFTER the "creation of the heavens and the earth" which occurred "in the beginning." You are ignoring the grammatical rules for the preterite. See Message 240 and basic reading of genesis 1:1 for more details.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Rrhain, posted 04-27-2009 4:54 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Rrhain, posted 05-11-2009 3:42 AM kbertsche has replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 246 of 316 (508166)
05-11-2009 3:40 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by Peg
04-27-2009 5:12 AM


Peg responds to me:
quote:
what does the physical evidence show?
is the universe only 6,000 odd years old?
This isn't about what the physical evidence shows. This is about what the Bible says and it says that life, the universe, and everything are only about 6000 years old.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Peg, posted 04-27-2009 5:12 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Peg, posted 05-14-2009 7:00 AM Rrhain has not replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 247 of 316 (508167)
05-11-2009 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by kbertsche
04-27-2009 1:10 PM


kbertsche responds to me:
quote:
The grammar of the preterite (i.e. waw-consecutive construction) clearly implies that the six days of creation occurred AFTER the "creation of the heavens and the earth" which occurred "in the beginning."
Incorrect. It is exactly the other way around. The creation of the heavens and earth were during the six days delineated in Genesis 1. There was no "before." I see we're never going to get anywhere with this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by kbertsche, posted 04-27-2009 1:10 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by kbertsche, posted 05-16-2009 11:25 AM Rrhain has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 248 of 316 (508484)
05-14-2009 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by Rrhain
05-11-2009 3:40 AM


Rrhain writes:
This isn't about what the physical evidence shows. This is about what the Bible says and it says that life, the universe, and everything are only about 6000 years old.
No it does not. You say that because you refuse to read the opening words of Genesis in the way Moses read them.
He wrote the same way other ancient writers wrote...not the way we write.
Ancient writers did not have a title for their writings...the opening words WERE the title. In the case of Genesis the title as Moses wrote it was simply
quote:
"Bere'shith Elo-him"
This is all that Moses wrote. It literally means
quote:
"Beginning God"
When the translators put it into english they wrote it as:
quote:
Vs 1 "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth"
This was the best way to write it in English because the subject that followed was about the creation of the earth.
While this helps us to read it in english, a language we can comprehend, it doesnt necessarily mean its going to convert to what Moses intended for it to mean in his language.
Anyone who has ever learnt another language will understand that gramma and sentence structure is different in different languages. Im sure i dont need to tell you that, i only wish you would take this into consideration a bit more seriously.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Rrhain, posted 05-11-2009 3:40 AM Rrhain has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Cedre, posted 05-14-2009 8:10 AM Peg has replied
 Message 251 by bluescat48, posted 05-14-2009 8:51 AM Peg has replied

Cedre
Member (Idle past 1490 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 249 of 316 (508486)
05-14-2009 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by Peg
05-14-2009 7:00 AM


Re: Peg
The minute we get into the whole ‘how the text was probably read by the author and what it meant in its original language’, we begin digging a hole for ourselves one that once we fall inside we will never be able to come out of.
The thing is in line with your reasoning we can't really rely on our English bibles so we should toss out all our English bibles and enroll in Hebrew Greek and Aramaic language courses simultaneously given that these are the three languages the English bible is translated from.
Since this is highly improbable we might as well just stick to our current bibles and agree on the interpretations they offer us. We have no other choices but to put our trust in the translators believing that they did their best in view of all their linguistic skills to faithfully translate a particular passage and therefore the entire bible as a whole.
Peg your view of what Moses probably meant with the phrase "Bere'shith Elo-him" which you said is translated in our bibles as "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth" is just one of the views why do you think it is the right one for that matter? Do you think in keeping with the context and every other relevant point that your view fully appreciates what Moses wanted to convey with that phrase.
This was the best way to write it in English because the subject that followed was about the creation of the earth.
With this statement you show that you agree that the way the phrase "Bere'shith Elo-him" is currently being translated in our bibles is the best way, so if it is the best translation of that phrase don’t you think it logically follows that it is possibly how the author intended it to be read or understood. Why should you argue for an inferior translation of that phrase which is most likely the incorrect one owing to it inferiority?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Peg, posted 05-14-2009 7:00 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Peg, posted 05-14-2009 8:45 AM Cedre has replied
 Message 279 by kbertsche, posted 05-16-2009 11:53 AM Cedre has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 250 of 316 (508487)
05-14-2009 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 249 by Cedre
05-14-2009 8:10 AM


Re: Peg
Cedre writes:
Since this is highly improbable we might as well just stick to our current bibles and agree on the interpretations they offer us. We have no other choices but to put our trust in the translators believing that they did their best in view of all their linguistic skills to faithfully translate a particular passage and therefore the entire bible as a whole.
Cedre, It is not impossible for us to understand the Hebrew language. There are many people who can speak it and write it. You can go online right now and take a beginners course in biblical hebrew.
I think you have to ask the question. What is more important...to hear the word of God the way its message was intended, or to hear the word of God the way a translator presents the message?
Who was the inspired writer? The translator or Moses???
Surely Gods word is to be trusted more then a translators interpretation.
Cedre writes:
Peg your view of what Moses probably meant with the phrase "Bere'shith Elo-him" which you said is translated in our bibles as "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth" is just one of the views why do you think it is the right one for that matter?
Do you think in keeping with the context and every other relevant point that your view fully appreciates what Moses wanted to convey with that phrase.
My view is based on the fact that ancient writers did not use 'titles' for their work. You can research it for yourself and you will find that in ancient tablets that have been found (many thousands of them) the tablet has no titles... in fact the title is always the first sentence or few lines of words and its the same for all the writings found from ancient times.
It does not need to be assumed that Moses wrote in this fashion, it is a fact. If you look at an ancient Hebrew scripture texts you will see that there are no titles, no numbers, no paragraphs.
the english translators added all these things in. In doing so, some of the original meaning was lost as is the case with Genesis 1:1 where moses simply set the subject matter in place.
Cedre writes:
With this statement you show that you agree that the way the phrase "Bere'shith Elo-him" is currently being translated in our bibles is the best way, so if it is the best translation of that phrase don’t you think it logically follows that it is possibly how the author intended it to be read or understood.
not if its being interpreted to mean that God created the universe at the same time as he prepared this planet for habitation. Those 6 days of creation that follow have nothing to do with Moses opening words.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Cedre, posted 05-14-2009 8:10 AM Cedre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by Percy, posted 05-14-2009 9:11 AM Peg has replied
 Message 257 by Cedre, posted 05-15-2009 5:56 AM Peg has replied

bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 251 of 316 (508488)
05-14-2009 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by Peg
05-14-2009 7:00 AM


Rrhain writes:
This isn't about what the physical evidence shows. This is about what the Bible says and it says that life, the universe, and everything are only about 6000 years old.
Peg writes
No it does not. You say that because you refuse to read the opening words of Genesis in the way Moses read them.
You are missing the point to Rrhain's statement. As for the topic of this thread, It it
The timeline of the Bible
He is simply stating that according to the Bible, life, the earth & universe are about 6000 years old which if one calculates the time listed in the Bible comes out to ~6000 years.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Peg, posted 05-14-2009 7:00 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by Peg, posted 05-14-2009 8:54 AM bluescat48 has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 252 of 316 (508489)
05-14-2009 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by bluescat48
05-14-2009 8:51 AM


bluescat48 writes:
He is simply stating that according to the Bible, life, the earth & universe are about 6000 years old which if one calculates the time listed in the Bible comes out to ~6000 years.
i know what Rrhain is saying
the problem is that the bible does not say that at all.
Where does it expressly say that the earth and 'universe' is 6,000 years old?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by bluescat48, posted 05-14-2009 8:51 AM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by bluescat48, posted 05-14-2009 9:09 AM Peg has replied
 Message 269 by Rrhain, posted 05-15-2009 7:50 PM Peg has replied

bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 253 of 316 (508490)
05-14-2009 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by Peg
05-14-2009 8:54 AM


You are not reading what either Rrhain or I am saying. Obviously the Bible does not specifically say the earth etc. is 6000 years old. As stated earlier the timeline, when calculated, comes to about 6000 years.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Peg, posted 05-14-2009 8:54 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Peg, posted 05-15-2009 6:21 AM bluescat48 has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 254 of 316 (508491)
05-14-2009 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 250 by Peg
05-14-2009 8:45 AM


Re: Peg
IGNORE THIS POST
I'm not going to modify this post, but as Modulous's reply indicates it is clearly wrong. Peg evidently meant that it is the *Hebrew* Bible that has titles that are phrases taken from the opening passage. Sorry Peg. --Percy
Peg writes:
... in fact the title is always the first sentence or few lines of words and its the same for all the writings found from ancient times.
This is obviously untrue. There were other errors in your post, but this hypothesis is so easy to test that I think I will:
English TitleFirst Few LinesConsistent with Peg's Hypothesis
Genesis In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters. No
Exodus These are the names of the sons of Israel who came to Egypt with Jacob, each with his household: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, and Judah, Is'sachar, Zeb'ulun, and Benjamin, Dan and Naph'tali, Gad and Asher. No
Leviticus The LORD called Moses, and spoke to him from the tent of meeting, saying, "Speak to the people of Israel, and say to them, When any man of you brings an offering to the LORD, you shall bring your offering of cattle from the herd or from the flock. No
Numbers The LORD spoke to Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, in the tent of meeting, on the first day of the second month, in the second year after they had come out of the land of Egypt, saying, "Take a census of all the congregation of the people of Israel, by families, by fathers' houses, according to the number of names, every male, head by head; No
Deuteronomy These are the words that Moses spoke to all Israel beyond the Jordan in the wilderness, in the Arabah over against Suph, between Paran and Tophel, Laban, Haze'roth, and Di'-zahab. No
Joshua After the death of Moses the servant of the LORD, the LORD said to Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' minister, "Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, you and all this people, into the land which I am giving to them, to the people of Israel. Yes
Judges After the death of Joshua the people of Israel inquired of the LORD,of "Who shall go up first for us against the Canaanites, to fight against them?" The LORD said, "Judah shall go up; behold, I have given the land into his hand." No
So far you're one for seven, your hypothesis is looking pretty much busted. Do you see any need to work further through the Bible?
I don't think this is critical to the point you were trying to make. I'm just reindicating my astonishment at your high rate of glaring errors. I thought it was just in science, but apparently you make things up about religion, too.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Add disavowal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Peg, posted 05-14-2009 8:45 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Modulous, posted 05-14-2009 9:31 AM Percy has replied
 Message 260 by Peg, posted 05-15-2009 7:12 AM Percy has replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 255 of 316 (508492)
05-14-2009 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by Percy
05-14-2009 9:11 AM


ahem, quality assurance officer calls again
Hebrew TitleFirst Few LinesHebrew title in English
BereshitIn the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters. In the beginning
ShemotThese are the names of the sons of Israel who came to Egypt with Jacob, each with his household: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, and Judah, Is'sachar, Zeb'ulun, and Benjamin, Dan and Naph'tali, Gad and Asher. The names
VayikraThe LORD called Moses, and spoke to him from the tent of meeting, saying, "Speak to the people of Israel, and say to them, When any man of you brings an offering to the LORD, you shall bring your offering of cattle from the herd or from the flock. And He called
bmidbar (Sinai) The LORD spoke to Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, in the tent of meeting, on the first day of the second month, in the second year after they had come out of the land of Egypt, saying, "Take a census of all the congregation of the people of Israel, by families, by fathers' houses, according to the number of names, every male, head by head; In the wilderness (of Sinai)
DevarimThese are the words that Moses spoke to all Israel beyond the Jordan in the wilderness, in the Arabah over against Suph, between Paran and Tophel, Laban, Haze'roth, and Di'-zahab. the words
YehoshuaAfter the death of Moses the servant of the LORD, the LORD said to Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' minister, "Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, you and all this people, into the land which I am giving to them, to the people of Israel. Joshua
ShoftimAfter the death of Joshua the people of Israel inquired of the LORD,of "Who shall go up first for us against the Canaanites, to fight against them?" The LORD said, "Judah shall go up; behold, I have given the land into his hand." Judge
You were using the Anglicized/Latinized names from the Greek titles, not the original 'titles'. And other works follow the pattern, such as Enuma Elish. Ancient works rarely, if ever, carried titles in the way that we think of them. Most of the names were given to the works later, and the tendency is to refer to them by the first significant noun or action in the work.

See Message 123 for my response to Percy's follow-up question.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Percy, posted 05-14-2009 9:11 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Percy, posted 05-14-2009 9:45 AM Modulous has not replied

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