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Author Topic:   Why is the Intelligent Designer so inept?
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 196 of 352 (506594)
04-27-2009 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Theodoric
04-27-2009 4:50 PM


Re: Trade Off
my computer was not designed by an all knowing entity.
You must have an Mac.
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Theodoric, posted 04-27-2009 4:50 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Theodoric, posted 04-27-2009 7:14 PM onifre has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 197 of 352 (506598)
04-27-2009 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by onifre
04-27-2009 7:04 PM


Re: Trade Off
I do not belong to an organized political party, I am a Democrat.
I do not have a religion
and I do not use Macs.(except when I volunteer at the school)
Seems that schools are one of the few places in the world where you can find a network of Macs.
BTW, I thought Mac users thought that their computers WERE designed by an all knowing entity.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by onifre, posted 04-27-2009 7:04 PM onifre has not replied

traderdrew
Member (Idle past 5154 days)
Posts: 379
From: Palm Beach, Florida
Joined: 04-27-2009


Message 198 of 352 (506675)
04-28-2009 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by Theodoric
04-27-2009 4:50 PM


Your Computer
Let's say that you are a friend of Michael Dell. I'm not sure but I think he is the owner and CEO of Dell Computers. Michael recently gave you a state of the art computer and now you're using it and you know it is better than anything your other friends currently have. Michael let you in on a secret. Michael Dell is a god and he has access to unlimited intelligence. You feel fortunate that you have this great computer but then it dawns on you to ask Michael a question.
"Hey Michael, since you are a god, why can't you build a perfect computer?"
Michael's reply might go something like this?
"Why are you asking me that? What is a perfect computer? How fast does it have to be to be perfect? Your computer doesn't have to be perfect. It will do just fine for all of your needs."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Theodoric, posted 04-27-2009 4:50 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Theodoric, posted 04-28-2009 11:16 AM traderdrew has not replied
 Message 200 by onifre, posted 04-28-2009 12:18 PM traderdrew has replied
 Message 201 by Perdition, posted 04-28-2009 1:18 PM traderdrew has not replied
 Message 202 by Taq, posted 04-28-2009 3:05 PM traderdrew has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 199 of 352 (506688)
04-28-2009 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by traderdrew
04-28-2009 10:33 AM


Re: Your Computer
Your attempt to make you analogy work is just getting lamer and lamer. I do not think this is helping your case at all.
So you believe that this all powerful being made things all "just fine"?
Damn your world just kind of sucks don't it.
In my world things change and adapt in order to be more successful. In a sense "better".

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by traderdrew, posted 04-28-2009 10:33 AM traderdrew has not replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 200 of 352 (506698)
04-28-2009 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by traderdrew
04-28-2009 10:33 AM


Re: Your Computer
"Why are you asking me that? What is a perfect computer? How fast does it have to be to be perfect? Your computer doesn't have to be perfect. It will do just fine for all of your needs."
What if the environment, in which the computer was adequately capable of working to it's fullest capacity, gradualy changes over time, making it's original uses not as adequate anymore. What functions does this "awesome computer" have that makes it adapt to this new changes?
Do you just throw it away because nothing within it can adapt?
Do you think biological systems would adapt to the changes, given the same senario?
Would you have to get rid of the current biological organisms and start all over due to the new environmental changes, or, do these biological organisms come equipt with a function that allows them to adapt to their new environment?
Say you start with a single organism, who adapts over time to the new environment, but the environment changes again, and so does the bio organism, how many changes, due to the environmental changes, will this organism go through before the original organism and the one which has adapted multiple times differ completely in features?
Can you say the same about a computer?

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by traderdrew, posted 04-28-2009 10:33 AM traderdrew has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by traderdrew, posted 04-29-2009 12:03 PM onifre has replied

Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 201 of 352 (506706)
04-28-2009 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by traderdrew
04-28-2009 10:33 AM


Re: Your Computer
Let's say that you are a friend of Michael Dell. I'm not sure but I think he is the owner and CEO of Dell Computers. Michael recently gave you a state of the art computer and now you're using it and you know it is better than anything your other friends currently have. Michael let you in on a secret. Michael Dell is a god and he has access to unlimited intelligence. You feel fortunate that you have this great computer but then it dawns on you to ask Michael a question.
"Hey Michael, since you are a god, why can't you build a perfect computer?"
Michael's reply might go something like this?
"Why are you asking me that? What is a perfect computer? How fast does it have to be to be perfect? Your computer doesn't have to be perfect. It will do just fine for all of your needs."
Your analogy would work better for the real world if this is what you said:
Michael claims to be a god gives you your amazing computer and declares it "good." Other people come over and are amazed at what you have, but notice the parts are stamped with serial numbers and tags saying "Made in Japan" or "Product of Taiwan." People point out that anyone could have gotten those parts and put them together and made your computer, and in fact, here's this other guy, Steve Jobs who can do an even better computer for you.
You repsond, "No! It's not better, there's a reason this computer doesn't seem to have all the things your new iMac can do, and that's because we don't deserve any better computers. And the reason the parts are stamped is so people have to open their minds and understand that Mike is a god, it's a test and you all failed!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by traderdrew, posted 04-28-2009 10:33 AM traderdrew has not replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 202 of 352 (506718)
04-28-2009 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by traderdrew
04-28-2009 10:33 AM


Re: Your Computer
"Why are you asking me that? What is a perfect computer? How fast does it have to be to be perfect? Your computer doesn't have to be perfect. It will do just fine for all of your needs."
I remember when an 8086 processor (actually, it was an 8088 because it had an additional math coprocessor, cutting edge stuff) could run all of the software out there, and quite well. It outperformed all of the other personal computers at the time.
So if I gave you an 8086 based computer would you think of it as perfect?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by traderdrew, posted 04-28-2009 10:33 AM traderdrew has not replied

traderdrew
Member (Idle past 5154 days)
Posts: 379
From: Palm Beach, Florida
Joined: 04-27-2009


Message 203 of 352 (506802)
04-29-2009 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by onifre
04-28-2009 12:18 PM


Re: Your Computer
I can't disagree with you. The others who responded to my post are just attempting to equivocate my statement because they don't have an answer for it.
It seems biological systems are more complex than systems that are designed by people. Modern technology and biochemistry has elucidated this. I think my creator enabled organisms to adapt to their environments via some kind of evolution but not neo-Darwinism.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by onifre, posted 04-28-2009 12:18 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Rahvin, posted 04-29-2009 12:20 PM traderdrew has replied
 Message 205 by onifre, posted 04-29-2009 12:29 PM traderdrew has replied
 Message 206 by RDK, posted 04-29-2009 7:13 PM traderdrew has replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 204 of 352 (506805)
04-29-2009 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by traderdrew
04-29-2009 12:03 PM


Re: Your Computer
I think my creator enabled organisms to adapt to their environments via some kind of evolution but not neo-Darwinism.
Explain.
What is your reason for thinking a "creator" is involved?
What is your reason for thinking that living organisms have the ability to adapt to their environment?
What is your reason for rejecting the Theory of Evolution as a model for this adaptability?
What mechanism do you believe drives this adaptability instead of evolution?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by traderdrew, posted 04-29-2009 12:03 PM traderdrew has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by traderdrew, posted 04-30-2009 11:52 AM Rahvin has not replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 205 of 352 (506808)
04-29-2009 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by traderdrew
04-29-2009 12:03 PM


Re: Your Computer
I can't disagree with you. The others who responded to my post are just attempting to equivocate my statement because they don't have an answer for it.
Cool. So we can agree that bio systems are much more complex and do have a feature which allows them to adapt.
I think my creator enabled organisms to adapt to their environments via some kind of evolution but not neo-Darwinism.
Let's then ignore neo-Darwinism.
Would you be willing to accept that the adaptable mechanisms - (to support your belief) - given by the creator, is mutations, which are selected because they prove benefitial to the organism in it's new found environment?
In other words: Mutation + Natural selection = Evolvement due to environmental pressure.
Does this seem like a reasonable process to you?
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by traderdrew, posted 04-29-2009 12:03 PM traderdrew has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by traderdrew, posted 04-30-2009 11:52 AM onifre has replied

RDK
Junior Member (Idle past 5270 days)
Posts: 26
From: Ann Arbor, Michigan
Joined: 11-23-2008


Message 206 of 352 (506848)
04-29-2009 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by traderdrew
04-29-2009 12:03 PM


Re: Your Computer
It seems biological systems are more complex than systems that are designed by people. Modern technology and biochemistry has elucidated this.
If I'm understanding your post correctly, I would just like to point out that just because we can't create our own biological organisms out of scratch and equip them with a replicating process similar to the one that existing organisms already come equipped with doesn't mean that it's more complex than we can understand. There's a difference between understanding how something works and actually creating that "thing", whatever it may be, yourself.
A good example is modern computer technology. I don't think you'd disagree with me if I stated that computer engineers are capable of pretty amazing stuff. What is it that makes biological systems more "complex" than our artificial ones? Try defining your terms before you go any further.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by traderdrew, posted 04-29-2009 12:03 PM traderdrew has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by traderdrew, posted 04-30-2009 11:55 AM RDK has not replied

traderdrew
Member (Idle past 5154 days)
Posts: 379
From: Palm Beach, Florida
Joined: 04-27-2009


Message 207 of 352 (506929)
04-30-2009 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by Rahvin
04-29-2009 12:20 PM


Re: Your Computer
What is your reason for thinking that living organisms have the ability to adapt to their environment?
It is based on observation and the evidence. I’m sure you’re familiar with Darwin’s finches and peppered moths.

I don't reject all theories of evolution. Evolution is probably a chaotic mixture of biochemical processes and at least one type of energy. It seems to me that a basic understanding of chaos theory provides new perspectives of possibilities within the origins of life.

It also occurred to me that all other theories of evolution enable certain people to hold at least a greater possibility of a creator being involved. Neo-Darwinism doesn’t have any room for a creator to become involved unless a creator is involved in the natural selection process. According to a secular perspective, it isn’t. You have to attribute mutations and natural selection as being the only mechanisms for evolution. Neo-Darwinism is on the furthest side of a spectrum of possibilities that allows those who believe in supernatural causations.
Page not found - Bruce H. Lipton, PhD

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Rahvin, posted 04-29-2009 12:20 PM Rahvin has not replied

traderdrew
Member (Idle past 5154 days)
Posts: 379
From: Palm Beach, Florida
Joined: 04-27-2009


Message 208 of 352 (506930)
04-30-2009 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by onifre
04-29-2009 12:29 PM


Re: Your Computer
That sounds like neo-Darwinism to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by onifre, posted 04-29-2009 12:29 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by onifre, posted 04-30-2009 1:46 PM traderdrew has replied

traderdrew
Member (Idle past 5154 days)
Posts: 379
From: Palm Beach, Florida
Joined: 04-27-2009


Message 209 of 352 (506931)
04-30-2009 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by RDK
04-29-2009 7:13 PM


Re: Your Computer
What is it that makes biological systems more "complex" than our artificial ones? Try defining your terms before you go any further.
Parts of organisms are specifically arranged into complex patterns in order to perform specific functions such as the flagellum. The flagellum is more sophisticated than outboard motor engines that drive man made water vessels. Also, DNA contains more information than an encyclopedia. If these things arrived here from outer space, we would say that this would prove the existence of extraterrestrial intelligence. But since these things are here already, many explain them away by some sort of chance process.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by Perdition, posted 04-30-2009 12:22 PM traderdrew has replied

Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 210 of 352 (506936)
04-30-2009 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by traderdrew
04-30-2009 11:55 AM


Re: Your Computer
If these things arrived here from outer space, we would say that this would prove the existence of extraterrestrial intelligence. But since these things are here already, many explain them away by some sort of chance process.
I disagree with this premise. We pride ourtselves on determining if something is natural (life) or unnatural (created). If some sort of DNA came from space, we would not consider it evidence for extraterrestrial intelligence...merely extraterrestrial life. Now, if extraterrestrial intelligence has developed a form of data transmission that uses DNA, we would have a hard time deciphering the fact that it was artificial, and in fact, this has formed the basis for some really good sci-fi stories.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by traderdrew, posted 04-30-2009 11:55 AM traderdrew has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by traderdrew, posted 04-30-2009 12:32 PM Perdition has replied

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